Mismatching Winter Tires

[Taylor]

Hey guys.. ugh... I dunno if I'm being bullshitted.. probably not but I'm being told one of the tires I brought in.. not the one I thought was flat as a bulge in it.. I didn't see any buldge when I put them in the back, but maybe there is a small one there.

Of course the shop is backed up so my options are limited to basically installing the bulged tire or putting two all seasons on the back because they have ZERO 195/55R15's in stock and they can't take the car off the lift since I just have the one set of wheels.

Anyhow I have no interest in driving in the snow with 2 winters and 2 all seasons. That, I know, would be bad.

But the question is.. how big if a deal is it going to be to mismatch winter tire model/brands?

We're talking likely 2 brand new winters on the front and these older ones on the rear (probably have a 4/32nds to the wear bar, about 8/32nds total if I had to guess).

It's not optimal, but this has got to be better than 4 all-seasons no?

I'll try to find used since the plan would be to buy 14" steelies and rubber for next year and it would suck to buy 2 15's who's only use may be to mismatch the tires on the BMW (if it were to make it through another year).

Course I could try to put the BMW's winters on the Fit (they're all good, slightly more tread depth) but then I've got mismatched on the BMW...

[mikewolf]

I would put a reinforced patch on the bulge. If you use something like a Tech reinforced patch they have metal cords in them and they use a vulcanizing chemical to make the patch become part of the tire. The patch will not get rid of the bulge, but will keep it from getting bigger. The repair should easily outlast the tread on the tire.

[Taylor]

Mike: Thanks. I suppose that is an option. Though I have no means in which to apply it and if the shop I took it to did, they probably would have suggested it. Then again this is Walmart. (not really my choice, but it's within 100 meters of where my wife parks the other car for the Go Train.. so it's really the only to get this job done without me having to sit in a waiting room half the day). While every minute of my time isn't worth money.. I would gladly dispense cash to regain wasted time. :)

In the end, the thought of a shop doing a bad repair job and the tire blowing out on my wife, maybe or maybe not causing an accident, etc... That just seems more likely to me than a change in tread design causing an accident. I'm willing to "risk" it with a simple flat repair, but a flat repair and a bulge repair is maybe leaving too much up to chance.

[mikewolf]

Sounds good. If you do decide to repair it, I would recomend www.besttiredeals.ca in Acton. It's kind of out of the way, but I used to work for the owner and in my opinion there is no one more experienced at repairing tires.

[HBomb]

According to the law you are ok to mismatch front to rear (or more specifically you cannot mix on any one axle).

So long as you are aware of the mis-match you'll be fine. Your car is setup for major understeer anyway so having the good ones out front and the used in the rear will likely work out ok in terms of balance.

I typically buy 2 brand new tires every other year, run them up front, swap the fronts to the rear and sell off the used rears :)

Hanif

[Taylor]

Thanks for the recommendation. That's actually not too far from me (407&401). Though I think I'd still know how bad (or not so bad) of an idea it is to just mismatch winter tire makes/models front to back.

If it's really bad, then I need either the same tire model, new tires, or the repair. If not so bad then my options open up a bit more.

[Taylor]

Hanif,
Yeah I would totally run a new pair up front and old pair in the rear.

But you buy the same model right? Or do you change up the model of tire? If so, notice any real downside to it for the average person. Not to suggest my lovely wife is a poor driver, but just that she's not going to be as intune to the car's road handling as most of us would be. (That said, she's been fine driving the RWD 318 in the winter)

[engsr]

Tay, I have mix-matched fronts and rears. Ran that last year with no issues. I believe I bought the (now) rears in 05 and ran them as fronts for two winters, then bought two new winters last year and put those on the front. Both still have decent tread as I usually will take them off in March just as it starts to warm up.

[Taylor]

Coolio. Yeah I figured most winters have to be in a much smaller percentage of grip variation than a half winter/half all-season setup would be. I just have no first-hand experience mixing tires at all.

[HBomb]

I have mixed brands but not type of tire (winter, summer, etc). It's not ideal, but if the tread is good and soft, you'll be fine.

Hanif

[RETROCRX]

Taylor,

I have run Snows on the front and all season on the rear of my Focus for the past 3 winters. To be honest, it just makes the car more fun to drive in the winter. Being a good driver like you are, you should have no issues running with a mismatched set. It just makes a FWD car nice and neutral in the winter.

Cheers

Rob H

[Taylor]

'k. So I measured the tread depth on these things... 5/32nds on the winter tires on the car now. (don't ask why I didn't check before.. visually they looked acceptable)

Are those going to last me about 3,000kms? I'm guessing their snow/ice performance is deteriorating at this depth but how bad?

Fortunately Walmart only charged me for 2 wheels/tires.. so that's good. No real loss if I just do the full replacement now. I just don't want to throw out good(ish) tires.

[Taylor]

Taylor,

I have run Snows on the front and all season on the rear of my Focus for the past 3 winters. To be honest, it just makes the car more fun to drive in the winter. Being a good driver like you are, you should have no issues running with a mismatched set. It just makes a FWD car nice and neutral in the winter.

Hey Rob.. yeah while I may be able to handle it just fine.. my wife drives the car too so. :)

I wouldn't run all-seasons on the back anyhow. I haven't even autocrossed this car.. no idea what it's like in an oversteer situation. Short wheel base and all.

[Matt]

Safety would dictate that you put your grip in the back, especially in the hands of a driver you wouldn't trust your race car to.

[jason_alt]

Short wheelbase.. wife driving the car as well.. safety your main concern?

Safety would dictate that you put your grip in the back, especially in the hands of a driver you wouldn't trust your race car to.

...yup

Best snow tires on the rear, not on the front.

[1999_ITR]

You wouldn't put the better tires in the back of a car that is setup for major understeer. Front wheel drive vehicle better tires in the front.

[jason_alt]

Although yes, understeering can lead to accidents in emergency braking situations, the bigger concern is oversteering. This concern rears its ugly head even more so in corners and evasive maneuvers, which can also lead to accidents. Yes, grip with a front bias can help the front tires stop quicker, but at the expense of the rear possibly coming around. The front grip in conjunction with heavy braking will result in a smaller contact patch at the already less grippy rear tires and can leave a driver much more susceptible to spinning in circles. A shorter wheelbase will further compound the problem.

Understeering is typically an easier situation for an average driver to get oneself out of as opposed to oversteering.

[1999_ITR]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. While I see your point and agree to an extent I don't see how someone could get a Civic or similar car to get the back to come around unless they pulled the e-brake. Maybe complete noooobs snap the steering wheel??

[HBomb]

I'm definitely with Mark on this one, but then again having spent so much time with a car sideways, our opinions are slightly skewed on the issue. I definitely put the grippier tires up front since I know with smooth deliberate throttle application and steering inputs the front does anywhere between 75 and 90% of the work.

Hanif

[jason_alt]

I'm definitely with Mark on this one, but then again having spent so much time with a car sideways, our opinions are slightly skewed on the issue. I definitely put the grippier tires up front since I know with smooth deliberate throttle application and steering inputs the front does anywhere between 75 and 90% of the work.
Hanif

I agree and that's just it. You and I are more than comfortable with a loose vehicle, or woman, and not in that particular order I might add, but I digress.... and i've forgetten my point now too. Oh yes...there's a lot of people who just don't know what to do when a car starts to lose traction. Understeer and oversteer can both be scary situations and panic is usually the first thing a lot of people do when this happens. The lesser of two evils would be an understeering situation, which is also one of the reasons if not the major reason why the majority of vehicles are dialed in this way.

I think we can all agree that running snows at all 4 corners is a much safer option than all seasons in wintery conditions. A little extra grip at the back is just some added insurance to further help prevent an oversteering situation for the majority of those who are not comfortable with that.

I don't see how someone could get a Civic or similar car to get the back to come around unless they pulled the e-brake. Maybe complete noooobs snap the steering wheel??

One season I chose to drive with snows up front and all seasons on the back. It was tons of fun, and the application of the ebrake wasn't necessary when I drove the Crx with this tire configuration. I found all that was needed was an ever so slight lift of the throttle, and voila, fun baby fun! With a longer wheelbased vehicle, i've found even with a less grippy winter rear tire, the rear will come around if I lift under the right circumstances.. it just happens a little slower.

[Taylor]

Actually I think in general I would always agree I would want my grippier tires in front, HOWEVER.. in the case of snow/ice and the average driver maybe it's better to have the in the back.

My thinking is that with a FWD car if the front looses traction, you're going to notice it far more easily and quickly than in the rear for a particular road and you can adjust you driving accordingly. You'll notice it starting from a stop or climbing a hill, or coming to a stop... with the rear, you may only notice it when in a corner, and then only likely to have the car behave badly under braking in a corner.

Therefore for the average driver, the heads up of shitty road conditions is best triggered, I think, with the weaker tires on the drive wheels.

[RETROCRX]

One season I chose to drive with snows up front and all seasons on the back. It was tons of fun, and the application of the ebrake wasn't necessary when I drove the Crx with this tire configuration. I found all that was needed was an ever so slight lift of the throttle, and voila, fun baby fun! With a longer wheelbased vehicle, i've found even with a less grippy winter rear tire, the rear will come around if I lift under the right circumstances.. it just happens a little slower.

Jason, that is EXACTLY the same response I get from the Focus in this trim. BUT......you really have to be on top of the car and know what to expect of it. I wouldn't want my wife to drive my car like that, not because she is a bad driver, she is just not prepared to crank in opposite lock to keep the car going in the direction you want at normal speeds.

If you plan on all seasons at one end and snows on the other, putting the snows on the back would be a far safer bet.

Rob

[TodF]

Jason, that is EXACTLY the same response I get from the Focus in this trim. BUT......you really have to be on top of the car and know what to expect of it. I wouldn't want my wife to drive my car like that, not because she is a bad driver, she is just not prepared to crank in opposite lock to keep the car going in the direction you want at normal speeds.

If you plan on all seasons at one end and snows on the other, putting the snows on the back would be a far safer bet.

Rob

This is why I always laugh when I see people with snows only on the front (especially if it's a "ricer" Civic with 13" snows on the front and their baller 17's on the rear) or when people ask me if they should only buy 2 snows... I realize that some of "us" can handle it but it's not to be recommended for your average driver.

As far as the theory behind the "better tires on the rear" and the reason I always do it (especially on the wife's car). I figure understeer and braking is (usually) lower speed stuff in town that has much less chance of hurting or killing you than snap oversteer or a killer wiggle on the highway next to a transport truck.

[HBomb]

So do all of y'all that would run the snows on the rear also run the higher tread tires (out of a set of 4 identical tires) on the rear as well?

[Maxi]

I wouldn't run mismatched tires in the winter, where I want as much grip as I can possible get out of all four contact patches, but if I had no choice, I would run the fresher winter tires up front since I personally place more value on braking and steering, both things the front tires do much more of than the rears. Drive appropriately for conditions and for the tires on the rear and oversteer shouldn't be an issue, so putting the good winters up front for maximum braking and steering, the two things most important to avoiding an accident, would be my strategy.

[TodF]

^ yes, for your car... but would you still do this for a car driven by someone who doesn't exactly know how to countersteer (and maybe even accelerate) out of a spin like "we" do.

[1999_ITR]

Sorry Jason. I didn't know you were talking about runnning all seasons in the back I thought you were talking about running all 4 snows but the best tires in the front. I personally would never run all seasons in back with winters in front or vice versa.

[Maxi]

^ yes, for your car... but would you still do this for a car driven by someone who doesn't exactly know how to countersteer (and maybe even accelerate) out of a spin like "we" do.

Absolutely. Because I would take the time to explain to my wife or friend or whoever the cheap bastard is who's unwilling to spend a few hundred dollars on matched winter tires that they need to modify their driving style because the rear tires may have less grip than the fronts in certain situations. Basically, take it easy in the turns, especially when it's snowy or potentially icy. But I would sleep MUCH better knowing they've got a car than will stop and turn properly, allowing them react and avoid accident situations caused by the dumbasses they're sharing the road with, which in my experience are far more likely to be the cause of a crash, as opposed to the less likely scenario of oversteer leading to a crash. Without maximum braking performance in emergency situations, you're in trouble, so I'll opt for the best tires where most of the braking is done, up front.

Just one man's opinion, sent via the wonders of the interw3b from the airport in Phoenix (on my way to the 25hr race). And OMG do they ever have good Mexican food in Phoenix! Just had the best chicken burrito of my life. Must have something to do with the proximity to Mexico or something :p

[Taylor]

There's a restaurant in Streetsville (yeah, Streetsville!) run by a mexican family that's really quite good, as good or better than anything I've had in Mexico. And I don't really like mexican food as a rule. But I love their chorizo. Even Dyno concurred it was a great find.

[1999_ITR]

Look up a place called Mexico Lindo in Ajax. Hands down the best and most authentic I've ever had. You WILL thank me.

[mxqisit]

There's a restaurant in Streetsville (yeah, Streetsville!) run by a mexican family that's really quite good, as good or better than anything I've had in Mexico. And I don't really like mexican food as a rule. But I love their chorizo. Even Dyno concurred it was a great find.

Details? 8910...

[Maxi]

I wonder, could a burrito fart cause snap oversteer in a car with mismatched tires? :p

Streetsville, huh? Not exactly the area I'd expect to find authentic Mexican food, but I'm game to give it a try. Maybe we can have an impromptu HADA burrito eating contest, followed by drifting in the snow?

[Matt]

So do all of y'all that would run the snows on the rear also run the higher tread tires (out of a set of 4 identical tires) on the rear as well?

Proper tire rotation means that I have never had a situation where my street tires would have 2 better than 2. On track I always put the most grip up front because i WANT the oversteer and economics says i should.

I can give you a GREAT example of why NOT to put way more grip on the front than the rear! Did you happen to see me at Shannonville!?!? yowza!

This was caused by me being a moron and having 2 different sized rims forcing me to keep my front tires up front and my rears on the rear... full tread in rear, no tread in front.... switched them around for the last event so that i didn't explode the fronts.

[jason_alt]

There's a pretty good fast food mexican joint in the phoenix airport that i'd always hit up on my layovers to California... mmm mmm good. Although I did make the mistake of filling up on that same burrito belching goodness just before the long flight back to Toronto once. I was so gassed up, I think all that high pressure flatulence helped knock a good half hour off the flight time.

[Slowpoke]

Pretty much every tire company, if you insist on running mismatched tires, recommends the grippiest tires on the rear. They let the poor front grip keep you slow so that you don't end up going fast enough to cause a problem.

But I see no problem in any ice racer putting the best tires up front.

[Taylor]

Ryan: 8910? Que?

The place is called Cantina Mexicana. Maybe we can do lunch there sometime. Holla. (Closed Mondays though.)

[mxqisit]

10 character minimum. Lunch sounds good, but probably after the holidays. We can chat about it at GPK in a few hours ;)

[Taylor]

So low and behold, I have 2 tires in the garage I wasn't aware of, but they're 195/60R15's.. and the ones I have on the car are 55's.

Think running 60's on the front and 55's in the back is going to make much difference? As it is I'm running two different types of tires on the car so there could be a "height" difference already. And the plan was to buy 2 new 195/55's (which I haven't been able to track down locally) which could be mismatched in sidewall height to the rears too...

I think we're only talking 1 cm difference (195*0.6 vs 195*0.55) on the sidewall.. so I guess 2cm total per tire. Not even an inch. Actually the ride height is only changing by 1 cm here.

It would just effectively switch the weight distribution back a bit which isn't so bad in a Front Engine FWD car...

No biggie right? Fair conclusion?

[jason_alt]

Throw 'em on and forget about it.

19.5mm overall height diff = 3/4".

approx 10mm wheel well gap diff = approx 3/8".

[Matt]

Do it.......

[Maxi]

You could probably get their rolling diameter closer together by running the higher profile tires at a lower tire pressure, though obviously you'll want to keep this within reason for safety purposes.

[TomL]

I drove a whole season with one tire a different size from the rest. Never even noticed it until the next spring. Douchebag crappy tire sold me three of one size and one of another.

[Taylor]

Tom: Gold.

Coolio. Problem solved.

[Matt]

I am amazed that anybody actually still goes to CT. I knew a bunch of people that worked in CT as mechanics... IN HIGH SCHOOL!!! I don't want some minimum wage kid working on my car no matter how simple of a job it is.

[TomL]

Trust me, that was the last time I did any car work there, and it was probably 5 years ago. All I did was buy 4 snow tires, and had them mounted on rims I supplied. A no-brainer, or so I thought....