Solosprint Beginner Year... Questions!!

[BestodaBest]

Hey guys,

I'm a fairly new member, and plan on getting involved with motorsports this year. As it stands now, i have a turbo GSR (built bottom, stock head) running a t3/t4 turbo; 291whp at 8.7psi.

Now, i have the intention of turning it into my track car, and daily driver. So obviously, the turbo has to go. I've balanced out that the reliability issues that might ensue from driving to tracks, beating on it, and driving back are more then likely going to become an unnecessary annoyance (at least for my beginner year).

On top of that, the PIPs would just add right up. So my question to anyone interested in helping me with my decision, is should i make the car stock and concentrate on suspension/braking/wheels/drivetrain (clutch, flywheel, tranny)? Perhaps a Type R swap?

I currently have a stock JDM block lined up; would it award me PIPs if used in conjunction with my USDM head? I'm not exactly sure if it constitutes an engine swap?

[engsr]

Aside from the motor issue (I would say go to something stock) it's best to drive the car as it is. The stock suspension is probably the better way to go because you'll eventually learn/figure out what needs to be upgraded in order for the car to perform the way you want it. If you throw on a bunch of components based on what others tell you, it might not actually help you learn - it works for them, but not necessarily for you.

I don't know what you have done suspension wise, but I would leave it as is, learn the car, and then figure out what you need to upgrade - no point throwing things on that you may eventually remove anyway.

Oh, and take the solosprint school - trust me. You will learn so much from it, it's not funny. Actually, have you ever participated in any slaloms yet? Not to say it won't make a difference (as you'll do slalom exercises at the school) but having a few events under your belt will give you some idea how your car reacts to the inputs and such.

[BestodaBest]

No, i have not participated in any slalom events, nor have i been to any track days. My car is currently sitting on Omni street coilovers (10k, 8k), with camber adjustable fuca's, and omni rlca's.

I appreciate the input; so you recommend i revert all engine components to stock? What do you suggest i upgrade, regardless of my experience level?

I.e. brakes, tires (streets/R's?), bolt ons?

Are PIPs gained by swapping in a JDM engine of the same model?

[BestodaBest]

I should also probably mention that i'd like to have a fun street car at the same time; i enjoy attending club meets from various forums, so a little show with the go isn't a bad thing.

[Taylor]

What follows is the best possible advice you could get as a beginner.

Don't spend a dime on the car today.

If you have money this year... spend it on schools and lapping days. Seriously. I know, as a car guy, it's hard not to pimp yo' ride, but you'll be financially better off.

The chances of being a winning driver, day 1, is slim to none without some other kind of performance driving experience under your belt and you need every event you can get to win certain classes. Though you could do a boatload of pre-season events and gain some good experience to be at least a contender.

Therefore, forget winning this year, get some seat time, be observant, ask around, and if winning is important to you, evaluate what you know, learned and the opinions of experienced drivers after a season or so and then prep your car for a class as best you can and go take that trophy.

If winning isn't important to you then do whatever your disposable income will allow so you have fun, but fact is many say it doesn't matter, but they find out they're competitive and then suddenly the priorities change and the wallet aches. But there are a lot of people out there that aren't contenders and still come out week after week. Try to challenge yourself first as a driver, then look to the car.

Fact is, I started in an S2000 (240hp), then a fairly modified MR2 Turbo (222hp at the wheels) and my most fun and competitive driving has been in a 115hp Civic Hatch, in SoloSprint, in the largest class when I last ran the series. (In AutoX my best results were the OE S2000).

The Civic was the cheapest car, but also the one with the most work done on it (engine swap, suspension, bolt in cage, exhaust, custom intake, etc..etc..etc..).

Several people in the club have won championships in OE Stock cars.

[mxqisit]

What follows is the best possible advice you could get as a beginner.

Don't spend a dime on the car today.

If you have money this year... spend it on schools and lapping days. Seriously. I know, as a car guy, it's hard not to pimp yo' ride, but you'll be financially better off.

The chances of being a winning driver, day 1, is slim to none without some other kind of performance driving experience under your belt and you need every event you can get to win certain classes. Though you could do a boatload of pre-season events and gain some good experience to be at least a contender.

Therefore, forget winning this year, get some seat time, be observant, ask around, and if winning is important to you, evaluate what you know, learned and the opinions of experienced drivers after a season or so and then prep your car for a class as best you can and go take that trophy.

If winning isn't important to you then do whatever your disposable income will allow so you have fun, but fact is many say it doesn't matter, but they find out they're competitive and then suddenly the priorities change and the wallet aches. But there are a lot of people out there that aren't contenders and still come out week after week. Try to challenge yourself first as a driver, then look to the car.

Fact is, I started in an S2000 (240hp), then a fairly modified MR2 Turbo (222hp at the wheels) and my most fun and competitive driving has been in a 115hp Civic Hatch, in SoloSprint, in the largest class when I last ran the series. (In AutoX my best results were the OE S2000).

The Civic was the cheapest car, but also the one with the most work done on it (engine swap, suspension, bolt in cage, exhaust, custom intake, etc..etc..etc..).

Several people in the club have won championships in OE Stock cars.

Take his advice (or just buy his car ;) )

[Taylor]

To address your last couple questions:

Last I knew, Brake Pads were a free upgrade... they're also just a good idea for track vs the street drivability and on a honda only take a few minutes a corner to swap out for a weekend of solosprint.. So yeah.. good pads are an easy recommendation for anyone and something you WILL need. In fact, you could swap rotors too for a few minutes more...guess it depends on the pads you get and how agressive they are on the rotors.. Hawk Blues would eat rotors, which in turn would eat your street pads when you put them back on... but still better than running track pads ont he street. (says the guy with Project Mu 999's on the street. :).. I'm just lazy)

R's are now being Pipped.. learning-wise you're best off with Street tires. My very first track event was the S2K, on OE S02's, in the Rain, at Mosport. R's are not forgiving, there is a learning curve to them. That said if you only drive 8/10's, you'd be okay on them, but they'd be a wasted expense, IMO. Maybe if you run across a set of used ones, try them out at alapping day to learn how they work, but I wouldn't dump 1200 on a set of fresh R's for your first season (unless you like "throwing your money away").

As I say that though, if you have expensive street tires, you may be better off abusing cheaper streets or something like a full tread Toyo RA-1. (Sort of a Light R-Compound these days). Street tires will take a beating on the track, but they're forgiving and you don't have to buy another set of wheels and tires and swap them, etc...etc...

[BestodaBest]

I understand; i do intend on attending the hada race school this spring, and you'll see me at the open house in april, as well.

I would also like to attend all events (budget isn't much of an issue), so long as no major problems arise with the car (which reverting back to stock should alleviate). I would just like to ensure that i'm capable of being competitive, and that my car is up to task.

I will take your advice, and attend my first few events stock, and add on any necessary modifications as i progress.

[MilesM]

Think about getting a dedicated ride.

Less power the better for a starter. I ran a stock D15 powered CRX DX with 97hp and had a blast. You missed out on Opal's ride - that would've been faster than your car with a GSR and far more reliable. Think about finding a stock hatch back, somewhere - anything but a del slo. Then replace all the bushings, get some good track pads and go out and have some fun with a set of RA1s - one of the most forgiving tires you can find. Take your fancy car for your show and shines, swap meets and weekend cruises, then take your track whore out and beat the living crap out of it every weekend at lapping days, schools and solo2s. Get out there cheaply and go out every weekend with as much instruction as you can. Then hone your skills in competition.

[BestodaBest]

So you would recommend using the free mods to my advantage? I'll have to check out the rulebook on my next break. I was also considering pedals, brake lines, clutch line, clutch, maybe an lsd tranny?

[Taylor]

BTW, on the Turbo thing. Good thinking dropping the Turbo.

Adam on here had the most notoriously unreliable turbo setup. The car was very fast and he fast in it, problem is there were at least 2 full years, he never was able to run a Sunday event because something went wrong.

In fact, Adam's best year AFAIK was when he ran a fairly stock 240.

Me, personally, the MR2 was a mistake without dumping a few more grand into it. Fact is a hot July day with 35 degree ambient temperatures would KILL my lap times. Morning was always faster and the key to splitting ties in Solosprint is your consistency (mind you that wasn't the problem wit hthe MR2, but it did mean even if I sorted out the other problems on that car, I'd still be left with the Turbo heat-soak problem. Hell a few days there it was so hot the clutch fluid was boiling and I would loose my clutch (cause the engine bay was so hot from the turbo).. oh plus the studs would stretch on the manifold and I'd get an exhaust leak and have to put my arms into that engine bay... it.. just sucked.

That said.. the MR2 was great on the street but that's not why I bought it, or spent money on it.

One of the big reasons why the Civic has been so good was it's been stupid reliable. It let me focus on my driving not dorking around with the setup. Plus having such a low-powered car helps you learn flow, rather than turn and stab which is what a lot of Turbo setups seem to result in. It's easier to hide flaws and inconsistencies from lap to lap when you have a lot of power on tap.

[engsr]

EDIT - reply originally for the third post.

The way the rules are with motor swaps, you're limited to a certain number of PIPs before you can submit a dyno, so I don't know how many more PIPs would you accumulated if you swapped in a C5 over a C1 (your car is a GS-R, right?). But since you're new to this, I doubt that you're concerned with the competitive side of it - you want to learn to drive the car and have fun right? So motor wise, it's up to you really. Just make sure it's something reliable.

Suspension wise, I feel that what you have is good enough to learn on at this point. Since it's a daily, the 10/8 should be fine. Adding a rear sway (say Type-R) will help with the rear rotation but this is something not to take lightly, especially at this point. I would suggest this as a future upgrade.

For brakes I would recommend Hawk HP+ and a good hi temp brake fluid, say Motul RBF 600. Hawk HP+ are a great street pad but aren't really designed for track use. If you're easy on them, then you should be ok. I doubt at this point you'll be doing any last minute hard braking, so the HP+ should work for you. The Motul will help prevent brake fade and this is probably the key element next to the pad compound. Oh, use blank rotors - the cross drilled and slotted are a waste of money, even though they're marketed as better than blanks. They're not, so don't bother. Brembos are cheap from Carl (bbqman), so send him a PM if you need rotors.

Tires - definitely street tires. Street tires are great for learning as they give you very good feedback. The Falken Azenis is probably the best one out there, I think. I wouldn't suggest R compounds until next year. R compounds hide your mistakes as a driver and they don't make you faster right off the bat. Plus, it's hard to figure out when an R-comp will break away (ie. they don't squeel) so you could easily spinout without even realizing it. Stick with streets.

Once you get a season under your belt, then start tinkering with set-ups, R-comps, track brakes, alignment settings, etc. Right now, just go out, have fun, and learn how to drive the car. Once you've better your skills, you'll discover the things that you will need to upgrade on the car, so worry about it then. Seat time is the key.

[Taylor]

I was also considering pedals, brake lines, clutch line, clutch, maybe an lsd tranny?

Pedals are useless... work on heel and toe next year. Last thing you need while trying to learn your line and smooth driving is jerky and inconsistent heel and toe technique.

Clutch Line will give you no performance gain and unless it's an OE replacement, probably PIPed.

LSD is very beneficial, but mucho pips and brings me back to the whole idea of doing any prep before you know what you're capable of and the lay of the land competition-wise.

If you do anything now, I gurantee you you will be pulling mods off the car or replacing them with something else to fit better in a class later. (though that will happen indefinitely anyhow in this sport. :)

However you may find that pulling and selling stuff off your car will put you in a better position to win events.

Hell you could find you don't even like motorsport!

There's a couple guys I play Hockey with, 1 in his 30's, $300 sticks, full body Under Armor, licensed jersey, the best gear. Another is in his 50's, arrives in a suit with his clean and crisp expensive haircut, has maybe (no joke) 8mm of blade left on his 20 year old skates, unreadable text on the jersey, wears sweat pants as socks over his pads, ties his old dirty hockey pants up with rope for corn sake. Guess who's the better player... by a mile?

[ShaneG]

Tay Tay,

sounds to me like you are jonesing to get back out there!

You know you wanna!:D

^ yeah, what these guys said.

the only thing that i would add, is: If you don't mind getting beat by a huge margin, leave whatever mods you have on the car, make it relaible and get out there! - I figure if you are used to the way the car reacts as it is now, changing it back to stock will be a re learning curve.

However, taking it back to stock is ultimately the best idea if you have the stock parts. I would not go out and buy new stock parts unless you are getting it dirt cheap. either way you will have to re-learn how to drive more that you probably realize.

Bottom line is the best way to improve the car is to improve the driver, and you are on your way to doing that now. as Taylor said, from right now, throw away this year's results, you will not be competing for first place without a huge amount of luck (6 of 6 in the 649 kind of luck...almost):) so use this year as a learning year and you will be much better placed to know what to do next year and beyond.

[Taylor]

Tay Tay,

sounds to me like you are jonesing to get back out there!

You know you wanna!:D
Bah.

I'm too old for this shit. :)

... I really should punch my numbers into the PIP form though.

I'll be doing AutoX this year though since I said I'd take the neighbours son out to events, but he had damned well better be learning stick on someone elses car, otherwise you're gonna see a big blue auto oldsmobile making waves in the sea of cones... and I'll be puking in the passenger seat from it's horrible suspension!

[BestodaBest]

The reason i asked for pedals, is because the stock ones don't quite seem up to the task of heel toeing; i double clutch every downshift, but the gas pedal is about 2 1/2" below the brakes, so the only time i can really heel toe is under hard braking (doesn't happen too often on public roads).

But i think i've read somewhere on this forum that you can just bend it upwards, so its level with the brake pedal?

I also figured that an LSD would prove a huge advantage (i've pushed my open-slip to the max plenty of times; its not the best feeling in the world when you take corners doing 60km/hr).

I do have all the stock parts laying around; i'm actually starting work today. The turbo kit will be off tonight, and hopefully the engine sitting on a stand, waiting for the new owner to show up. I want to replace it with another stock USDM GSR, but I have a decently priced JDM type R swap lined up from a friend of mine; do i need to submit a detailed list to the CCC? If i can keep it in a relatively low class, then i'd opt for the type R swap. Otherwise, i could simply pick up a stock GSR block.

[BestodaBest]

Essentially, i'd like to know how i would be classified with either swap, so i can base my choice off of what ranking i will be held in.

[Taylor]

Unfortunately the 2009 rule book is not out yet.

You could look at the 2008 one, and try to figure it out from there.

I dunno who in the club is still on the CCC (Car Classification Committee). But whomever it is may be able to comment on any changes. There may be a thread on the CASC-OR forum indicating what changes were decided on and if they'll affect you.

[engsr]

If you left the chassis as is and dropped in a C5, good chance your car will land in high GT1 - my ITR sits at the very top of GT1 and all it has is suspension. Figuring in swap PIPs or dyno, that would be my guess of where it lands. A C1 should keep you in GT2, though.

Here's the tool that we use to figure out our PIPs and where the car lands:

http://www.macrocosm.on.ca/ccdb/

Noodle around with it and you'll get an idea of where your car will be classed.

[engsr]

There may be a thread on the CASC-OR forum indicating what changes were decided on and if they'll affect you.

http://casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=15566

This was the thread that discussed the changes. Whether or not they've been applied remains to be seen. Again, we're still waiting for the rulebook to be posted.

[BestodaBest]

Then I'll just leave a C5 out of the equation...although I can't find any information on swapping in a JDM block. It yields no performance gains that I know of (other then a very slight bump in compression ratio).

I'd use my stock usdm head in conjunction with it; can anyone shed light on this? I'm swapping my block for the JDM one tonight, but I'd rather not if it will earn me PIPs. I've checked the rulebook, and there's no info in regards to blocks, or even tranny's.

[BestodaBest]

Just to put my mind to rest... Is there anything I need to consider when swapping a us head onto a jdm block? I'm pretty sure its just a straight swap. Same headgasket, studs, harness, sensors, etc..

[Taylor]

Errr..if you don't have the OE motor, you're looking at an engine swap. If you have enough PIPs (is this still the rule?!) you can submit a certified dyno plot to bypass engine PIP's.

Again, have a look at the CC DB and play with it to try to figure out your classing and such to help make a short-term decision.

[nrg3k]

dyno plot rules are only major change this year. The idea is (and this is not exact, as the rules aren't out yet)... is that when you reach a certain number of ePIPs (engine performance points), you can submit a dyno and take off a fraction of the number of pips above the base .... so if the base required for a dyno to be used is 15, if you have 20, you get to claim 17.5 instead of 20.. or something along those lines. The idea is to deter dyno plots that show lower than spec hp (which is almost 100% certain if you have no engine mods on a swap motor).

For your JDM block with USDM head, you will likely take ePIPs for stroke or pistons, since they aren't the same as USDM stock. Check the specs of your combo and you should be able to see whats different. In some cases, a swap or partial swap can be simplified as one or two ePIPs instead of a complete swap.

Transmission changes that include different gear ratios incure pips, as does lsd.

DJM:>

[engsr]

Then I'll just leave a C5 out of the equation...although I can't find any information on swapping in a JDM block. It yields no performance gains that I know of (other then a very slight bump in compression ratio).

USDM B18C1 is 170HP crank, and the JDM B18C non R spec is 178HP.

USDM B18C5 is 190HP crank, and the JDM B18C R spec is 200HP.

So even if the bore, rod length, stroke, etc stays the same, the different compression (due to the pistons) warrants PIPs (2 according to the rulebook). So swapping a JDM block does yield some gain, even if it's slight.

[BestodaBest]

Ah, understood... I figured most of the gains were do to changes between thr heads; I.e. Valves, combustion chamber dome, volumetric efficiency, etc...

Thank you; I guess I'll opt for a usdm swap. For the tranny, if I choose to run the jdm itr tranny with a 4.7 final drive and lsd, would I only collect pips for final drive and lsd; or are there additional pips awarded "just because its a swap"?

[Taylor]

David: Not sure that change to the dyno makes any sense to me.

I know originally we said you have to have x # of engine PIPS (or a swap) before you can submit a dyno plot. I dunno what the thought would be behind fractioning the ePIPs based on a dyno plot?! Maybe applying the difference? Though that would seem to unfairly hit people since our base classification is all power to weight.

Anyhow a motor with intake and exhaust will certainly change the power output. Though frankly with tuning, all I got out of the Civic were an extra 6.something at the crank but that was because the engine swap allowed a dyno plot.

But a swap with intake and exhaust is going to change the P/W ratio.

[nrg3k]

i think the point was to help people with turbo's who built for reliability instead of max power. the pip system is designed to penalize setups that don't make maximum gains for the replaced/upgraded part .Therefore, if you max out engine pips, you should hvae a million hp but zero reliability. Regardless, this doesn't impact non turbo cars much other that bumping us all up classes if we submitted a dyno plot and had less than whatever pips are required.

For the tranny, if I choose to run the jdm itr tranny with a 4.7 final drive and lsd, would I only collect pips for final drive and lsd; or are there additional pips awarded "just because its a swap"?

you will take 1 point for the gears and 1.5 for the lsd. thats it.

DJM:>

[ShaneG]

Have the final rules for '09 come out:confused:

[ShaneG]

Also I was gonna say,

My GSR with ITR swap will be in SGT3 or there abouts!

add 1 point for gearing change 1.5 for LSD, 2 for springs and 4 for shocks and to get into GT 1 it would need to weigh ~2700 lbs

all numbers approximate using 175ish whp

YMMAV

... I really should punch my numbers into the PIP form though.


Hahaha, slippery slope or cliff!
:D

I typed this at lunch and then had to see a client so some of it is a little late to the table

[pigeon]

I believe Jays Integra was SGT3-R weighing in at 2741 with 196whp. Looks like SGT3 is the new GT2.... woot!

[MilesM]

Just punched in the numbers for Dale's car and it fell two pips into Improved with ubbers. Might have to pull it back into SGT1 somehow. Hrmm.

[jonweir]

Just punched in the numbers for Dale's car and it fell two pips into Improved with ubbers. Might have to pull it back into SGT1 somehow. Hrmm.

C'mon Miles, just drive faster! :cool:

[AdamH]

yes..ditch the turbo...very hard to run a reliable season with turbocharged engines...been there done that...big waste of time and money

I would get experiance and forget modding the car..you wont be able to beat any of us without knowing the tracks very well, regardless of what you do to your car.

then get some spare rims and R tires and brake pads..and then coilovers

I would leave the power side of things alone..it just costs money

learn the tracks..and go out and lap..and lap..and lap..

Adam

[BestodaBest]

Sorry guys.... been hard at work!

So the engine's gone, and i've decided to go with a stock GSR.

I've also put alot of other things into consideration...

I've decided to keep my Omni coilovers, but unsure as to what setup would be appropriate for a beginner... ride height, camber, toe, etc...

For exhaust, i'm looking into a JDM ITR 4-1 header, gutted cat, and a decent cat-back system. Intake wise... CAI or SR? (i know; the debate goes back and forth).

I also have a 4-point password JDM rear strut brace, and plan to acquire a type r sway bar + ITR rear lca's.

I'm looking into SS brake lines, brake pads (i'm proficient at changing brake pads, so i have no problem having track-dedicated pads... can anyone recommend some for my setup?), street tires, a stg. 1 clutch kit, and lightened flywheel.

Also, for only 2.5 PIPs, i just can't resist the urge telling me to pick up a 98+ JDM ITR tranny (4.7 FD).

Now for ABS, should i keep it in, gut it, or is it possible to install the lighter 98+ version?

I don't mind spending money on pip-free mods, or smaller pip-acquiring mods.

Input is much appreciated!!

[nrg3k]

strut brace is free, as it doesn't really do much (4-pt is better than two tho). brakes are free - non-ABS might feel better, but some people who toss ABS regret it. modified header and cat cost points. CAI is better than SR, but beware of puddles;) ITR rear LCAs won't make a diff unless you have diff bushings or just want the mounting holes for the rear sway bar. anything aft of the cat is free. lightened flywheel costs pips - the shorter ratio gears and LSD will be worth it. For dedicated track rotors and pads, i suggest hawk blue or similar. dual duty pads are also good (GS3s for example).

If you have no track experience, this stuff is all moot as you won't be able to really take advantage until you have seat time. My first track day was spent dealing with old cooling system issues instead of brakes or power :D

DJM:>

[engsr]

You don't need the ITR LCAs for the sway bar - the stock ones are fine. But if you DO go with the ITR LCAs, your rear coilovers won't work any more.

I'd leave the ABS in (the lighter one won't make a difference). There are some moments where it saves your tires - I've had a few of those moments.

As for the overall set-up, as others have said before, get seat time in first, then worry about things like alignment, power adders, etc. With no seat time, you won't benefit from any of those mods, and you'll probably get discouraged because you might think your car is what's making you slow, when it's all driver.

[BestodaBest]

I see...

I didn't realize the ITR sway bar would bolt up to my stock LCA's... but i also noticed that the subframe mod would cost me 2 pips... is it well worth it?

[engsr]

Bracing (like ASR, Beaks) isn't a subframe mod, by the rulebook. See 4.9.2.6:

.6 The suspension mounting points on the chassis/frame may be reinforced. Strut and other suspension mounting point braces may be added to the chassis/frame and firewall. Suspension braces, (e.g. strut tower braces, tunnel braces, and tie-bars) subframe connectors and firewall braces
may be added. The chassis/frame and floor pan may be modified only to the extent necessary to facilitate this.

The sway will bolt up - the mounts are in the same location. The only difference may be the size of the endlink, but I was told you can re-use the GS-R endlinks. I have an extra set of ITR endlinks you can borrow if you need to compare the size of them.

[MilesM]

You might want to look into Taylor's EG hatch. It has extra safety equipment that's important, all the handling is sorted out for you, haven't seen it in years, but it should be a turn-key solo car. Also the Van de Peers just got a new car - so you might be able to get their old one for a good price. Wouldn't complete discount a cheaper, dedicated vehicle vs. a dual duty. Too many compromises for a street car to carry around race parts day to day and too many compromises on a street car to carry around all those usless race luxuries like interiors and heat. :) Make your street car nice, comfy and reliable and make your track whore a purpose built, uncompromising track whore who likes to take a regular beatin' like a bad, bad boy. Over the life of both vehicles you'll find that setup more competitive, more fun and may even cheaper if your whore isn't overly strung out. Like mine. Plus, if you breakdown on Sunday, you can still make it to work on Monday.

[engsr]

The sway will bolt up - the mounts are in the same location. The only difference may be the size of the endlink, but I was told you can re-use the GS-R endlinks. I have an extra set of ITR endlinks you can borrow if you need to compare the size of them.

Just checked - the endlinks are different part number, so you'll probably have to order a set to get the ITR sway on properly.

[pigeon]

ride height, camber, toe, etc...
For now, make sure that your ride height isn't any lower than about an inch from the factory ride height, otherwise you'll start suffering from roll center issues and bumpsteer.

I almost want to say to sell off the Omnipower stuff and grab some used OEM ITR stuff. Mainly because for a beginner an OEM suspension (especially ITR quality) will allow you to learn the cars dynamics, without being influenced by issues caused by entry level aftermarket suspension stuff. Having different spring rates will change the balance of the car, if they're too high the car will become difficult to control on rougher pavement or if you touch one of the bankings - or even worse if you drop a wheel into the grass. A low quality damper (or a blown one) will completely ruin the entire learning/driving experience (and unfortunately OMNI does not have a good reputation for lasting quality). Then theres the ride height issues, if the cars too low your roll centers will get worse and then you'll get tons of bumpsteer. You might not think these things are issues because the car drives fine on the street, but you'll be surprised at how nicely a stock suspension works - let alone an ITR one.

If I were in your position and I had to do it all again with an Integra, I would sell off your OMNI coilovers, and then buy the ITR rear sway, LCA, shocks, and springs. I can guarantee that the ITR setup is not only going to be faster than an untuned entry level coilover setup, but it will also be much easier to drive, and it will be much more reliable. On top of that, you could probably pay for it all with the money you get from the OMNI sale. After this year, you're probably going to be getting rid of the OMNI stuff anyways because there is better quality and more reliable stuff out there... so you might as well do it now and make learning easier, and make the car faster. After you're done this year you'll have a whole new appreciation for suspension, and you'll probably gravitate to either some better off the shelf coilovers (Buddyclub, TEIN, PIC, ect...) or some spring/sleeve/Koni setup.

I'm not going to harp on horsepower, everyone else covered that pretty well :) Pretty much if you have over 120whp, you're perfectly fine. Thats enough jam for a beginner, and once you start to learn the track and get really comfortable, thats actually enough power to hang mid-pack! Any more power, and thats just iciing on the cake... but if you have too much the car will once again become a handful.

I say the strutbars are a good mod, they're free and they do make a noticable improvement - and offer no downsides. As for alignment, keep toe stock... and I do agree with everyone who's saying to keep things stock right now and modify after you learn - based on your needs. But I would actually recommend to add some negative camber mainly to help wear your tires evenly. Nothing overly aggressive, because alignment really should be tuned to your driving style, but for now at a minimum I think you should have at least -1.5* in the front and -1.0* in the rear. Your tires will wear much more evenly and will save you from eventually cording the outer shoulders of the tire.

For brake pads, if you're able to, definitely swap some track pads in. If you're going with a dedicated race pad, just make sure you're ready to always clean your rims after each event as well as wash your car. The brake dust on them is corrosive if it gets wet and sits on your paint for long periods of time.

Also, not sure if you bought a helmet yet... but if you have the budget, instead of thinking about upgrading the car remember that you'll need a helmet. I'd also recommend a set of racing gloves too. Oh, and another interior mod that I thought made life so much easier, was a smaller steering wheel :)

[Taylor]

Yeah we're having a discussion about whether ITR LCA's are/should be PIP'd. So unless you need get them (to use an ITR coilover setup) , avoid them I guess.

Good plan on the OE GSR longblock.

Don't gut the cat, that's a Forced Induction trick, performance gains won't be worth the pips and there's the environmental hit too.

It was wierd when I first drove without ABS on the track, at Shannonville Nelson a good line for the front straight is to line the car up, having it pointing at the end of the barrier for the pit entrance, I came in pretty hot once locked up and didn't like the car not pointing at something else when I turned the wheel. :)

If you think you'll do any AutoX, ABS, IMO, is a must.

Brake Bads.. Blues are good, but they'll kill your paint. Michellin makes a brake dust repellant spray (which I never tried out because my track car doesn't have paint worth protecting) but you said you wanna 'show' the car. So make sure you wash the car down GOOD after a day at the track with Blues.

I run Project Mu 999's (which are really a racing pad). They've been very kind to my rotors on the street (unlike Blues on my ITR at the time), wear has been great (2200lb car) and they perform really well when hot. (Not so great for an AutoX pad though)

[pigeon]

...whore who likes to take a regular beatin' like a bad, bad boy
..odd how your whore reference happens to be male... LOL

[Taylor]

You might want to look into Taylor's EG hatch. It has extra safety equipment that's important, all the handling is sorted out for you, haven't seen it in years, but it should be a turn-key solo car.

Yeah, it's a pretty well sorted out car. Though I/someone would want to replace one of the rear end-links for camber as Active Green and Ross melted the bushing in one (caught it too late). Asshats. Also if you're a wide dood, you may want to replace the seat, it's a Sparco Ultra (fibreglass). Watching Pratte shoehorn himself in there was good fun.

I had my instructor at the TRAC school a couple years back say it was too stiff. Maybe for that bumpy-ass track. I never did corner weigh it and I haven't been to the dyno after replacing the cat last year but no reason to think it's not still doing 115.3 and 97 whole mother fucking foot pounds of torque to the wheeels BITCHES!

Sonia took a good one of it: http://www.wiredmotorsports.com/dankpit/photos/driving/images/201_6764a.jpg

More Photos here (http://www.wiredmotorsports.com/dankpit/photos/driving/). (ignore the ones without the cage, that's early and possibly on an ITR or JDM CTR or Civic SI suspension (I don't remember).

That said, if this is a GT4 car and I can run it in T1 on RA-1's... I just may eek another year out of it.

[Taylor]

..odd how your whore reference happens to be male... LOL

Not really odd if you know Miles. :)

He's a projector...

[BestodaBest]

Pigeon,

If i were to swap in a full ITR suspension (5 lug, control arms, coils, etc) would it give me sufficient camber? I assume it would lower ride height about 1", right? Or should i retain my adjustable upper control arms?

I have a friend who is interested in my suspension, so i will highly consider an ITR swap. Should i be concerned with wheel weight at all? If i end up picking up 5 lugs, i'll need to start looking for a couple set of rims...

My wanting to gut the cat is probably from my past forced induction venture (miss it already) but you do raise a worthy point. The rule book says i can swap in a high-flow cat pip-free, assuming it meets ontario emission standards... anyone recommend a brand? I'd need a 2.5" to mate up with the header.

[engsr]

ITR suspension only drops the car a half inch more than a stock Integra and the camber doesn't increase that much (0.30 degrees or so). And you don't need the 5-lug - that's just added mass.

I don't see the problem with just sticking with the Omnis, if you ask me. Although I agree that the quality of Omni's products aren't the greatest:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/engsr/Misc/img18798qr.jpg

By the way, if you do go 5 lug, I have a set (maybe two) sets of wheels to unload. Let me know. :D

[pigeon]

The ITR suspension will be lower than the stock GSR suspension, by how much.. I don't know. For now the amount of camber it gives you should be ok, but I would still keep the adjustable upper arms because in the future you'll probably want to add a bit more.

As for the 5 lug conversion, I don't think its required if you just want to swap ITR shocks and springs... so unless im missing something else, you're probably best off keeping your current rims and just staying with the 4 bolt. Of course unless you have other reasons for wanting to do it.

For rim weight, use rims that are somewhat lightweight. Its not necessary to spend huge money on getting the absolute lightest wheel, but sticking with something like Enkei, or Rota, or Team Dynamics... and you'll be perfectly fine. If you're buying rims, make sure its at least 7" wide. Using a wider wheel with the exact same tire will offer a signifcant improvement in grip, so stay away from the 6" and 6.5" ones if you're investing in new wheels.

I also would recommend you do an upclose and well lit inspection of your CV boots, ball joints, and tie rods. Also make sure there is no free play in the ball joints and tie rods. If theres any sign of weakness, replace them with Genuine Honda parts. You don't want a tie rod or ball joint failure at the track, as it pretty much ruin your whole car. I'd also go over all of your wheel studs with a die, and do a good visual inspection. Make sure the threads aren't stretched or distorted, or showing any signs of weakness. Lastly, since your car is around the 10 year old mark, get underneath there with a good light and do a visual inspection of all your hard brake lines. This is the time that they're start corroding if your car has seen many winters, and constant full braking pressure can make the really rusted and weakened ones rupture.

[BestodaBest]

My reasoning for the 5 bolt, is due to the larger calipers, pads, rotors, and an extra lug for extra strength. Is there a PIP for swapping knuckles?

Up until mid may, i will be on base (im an electrical mechanical engineer in the Army). The car is currently on a hoist at the base's auto hobby club, and thats where she's sitting till after the first big rainfall of spring (i hate salt).

I've already replaced the brake and fuel lines with Honda OEM ones, but i want to swap in the SS lines. The ball joints (lower, upper, tie rod ends) are all going to be replaced, as are most of the bushings and wheel bearings. I have some money to spend obviously, so i want to make sure i do it right the first time.

She's a '95, so she's 14 years old now... figures she's due for a complete overall, so why not. I'm also contemplating tearing down my next engine and replacing the bearings/seals/gaskets.

So as of now, i'm trying to do as much preventative maintainance possible, to avoid future complications.

[BestodaBest]

Can anyone shed light on the curb weight option? Benefits behind it?

[Taylor]

Due to the pip you probably have to take for the ITR control arms, it's not quite worth it when you have an existing coilover setup too. But yes, the brakes are nice and more usable with your heavier (than mine with a 5bolt) car.

Wish I could find that page I did on the weight difference of the parts when I did the swap. I'm thinking overall it added 40-50lbs. But I was doing race weight due to my cage anyhow.

[engsr]

No PIPs for the knuckle/trailing arm swap. I think where you get hit is the ITR rear LCAs, based on Taylor's other thread. But you can use the GS-R LCAs, if you needed to.

[Taylor]

Found it - VX to 5-Bolt (http://www.wiredmotorsports.com/vx25bolt.html)

45.6 lbs difference from a VX. (small rotors and brakes though)

[nrg3k]

race weight option is for cars that have been gutted and have more body pips than make sense. Its also perfect when you add a cage and have a gutted car, because it shows the actual weight, instead of basing performance level on general items (since these rules apply to american cars that are always heavier).

DJM:>

[BestodaBest]

40-50 pounds of unsprung weight from a 5 bolt swap? Really?

[Taylor]

From a VX Civic. The VX was only 92ish horse power, little 13" wheels, < 2100lbs.

But yeah.. you can see the calculations in the link there.

From GSR... maybe you're only looking at 20-25lbs. Maybe less. I dunno. But this does tell you what the ITR components weigh.

[pigeon]

My reasoning for the 5 bolt, is due to the larger calipers, pads, rotors, and an extra lug for extra strength. Is there a PIP for swapping knuckles?
If you're interested, we actually carry a brake kit that include new Genuine Honda ITR calipers with a machined bracket so that it fits the 4-bolt hub, and 4x100 redrilled Brembo rotors that are the same diameter as the ITR rotors (11.1") but are hubcentric to your Integra. Its a bolt-on kit for all 4x100 Honda's. This will allow you to use the ITR brakes without doing the 5 lug swap. This is the setup our Integra uses, and I know at least 3 other HADA members use the same one.

I don't think the added strength of the 5th stud should be a concern, i've never seen a 4 bolt failure that could have been avoided if it were a 5 bolt. If stud strength is a concern or if your current studs aren't in good shape, then upgrade to stronger APR studs.

Aside from that, it sounds like you're on the right track. Get all the maintenence out of the way, and replace anything that could break in the forseeable future. Then if you have a decent budget, take a couple track schools, attend lots of lapping days, and just spend lots of time at the track! Its tons of fun, and the better you get at it the more fun you have. By the end of the year, you'll know exactly what needs to be changed, adjusted, or upgraded on your car, and you could spend the winter of next season addressing all of those.

Also sign up for CAA Gold... just incase :)

[BestodaBest]

If you're interested, we actually carry a brake kit that include new Genuine Honda ITR calipers with a machined bracket so that it fits the 4-bolt hub, and 4x100 redrilled Brembo rotors that are the same diameter as the ITR rotors (11.1") but are hubcentric to your Integra. Its a bolt-on kit for all 4x100 Honda's. This will allow you to use the ITR brakes without doing the 5 lug swap. This is the setup our Integra uses, and I know at least 3 other HADA members use the same one.

Which company do you represent? How popular and available are your kits? I'd hate to buy it, then a year later when i need new rotors, i have to find someone to drill me some blanks.

And of course, how much?

Also sign up for CAA Gold... just incase :)

Lmaoo, i'll add it to the list. :p

[BestodaBest]

So after playing with the PIPs a bit, this is what i've come up with...

Base Model Info:

Weight: 2667.57
Crank Hp: 170
Susp Rating: 60
Lbs/Hp: 15.69
W/Hp: 66.58
Base PI: 64.6
Base Class: GT4

Mods:

Exhaust Header (JDM ITR 4-1): 2 PIPs


LSD, Final Drive (JDM ITR 98+ Tranny, 4.7 FD): 2.5 PIPs


Struts (ITR): 2 (S)PIPs
Springs (ITR): 4 (S)PIPs
Control Arms (ITR): (S)1 PIP
Rear Sway Bar (JDM ITR 23mm): 1 (S)PIP

8 (S)PIPs = 8.4 PIPs


A/c Removal: 0.5 (B)PIPs
Flywheel: 1 (B)PIP

1.5 (B)PIPs = 1.2 PIPs


Street Tires: -10 PIPs


This would bring my PI up to 68.7, and class me in GT3.
This still gives me 1.2 PIPs to play with... criticism?

[engsr]

GT1 base, not including tires, puts you in the HADA class (ie. GT2) if you go to non-Premium Rs - last year, HADA had 8 of the top 10 in that class. There might not be as many this year but it will still be a tough class.

Even GT3 you're in for a ride, especially if Mohammed's car ends up there.

Doesn't really matter what class you end up in, or how you maximize your PIPs, honestly. Considering you have little experience in this I wouldn't expect you to be remotely competitive. Just absorb as much knowledge from everyone (get ride alongs and lots of them) and you'll be much better as the season goes.

By the way, the brake "kit" that Chris is talking about is just an OEM set-up machined to fit the Integra spindle. There have been several people in the club that ran these and some still run it. Much cheaper alternative to going 5-bolt just for the brakes.

[BestodaBest]

How many members are expected to actively participate in solo sprint this year, and on average, how many events do you guys normally run?

[AdamH]

HMMM... we have maybe 15 guys come out

and maybe 8 or so that run the whole season...in around that number

[engsr]

Yeah, last year there had to have been at least 15 HADA peeps at each event, even at Calabogie, too. (FAP FAP, haha)

This year is hard to say as some plans have changed for some members.

I know I'll be doing the DDT and Shannonville events (no GP). I think David and Kenny will be doing the same. Can't speak for others, though. But don't worry, there will be some HADA guys around for most of the weekends - actually, HADA is hosting the two Shannonville weekends, so if you're there for both, let us know since we can always use help.

[MilesM]

Martin and I are doing the whole season again. Plus whatever schools and lapping we can squeeze in.

[BestodaBest]

So i've decided against the ITR 5 bolt conv; the money will be used elsewhere.

For the ITR suspension though, will it bolt up to stock GSR rlca's?

No PIPs for the knuckle/trailing arm swap. I think where you get hit is the ITR rear LCAs, based on Taylor's other thread. But you can use the GS-R LCAs, if you needed to.

Also, after thorough inspection, most of my bushings are in need of replacement; what's the most common replacement? OEM? Polyurethane? Mugen?

Lastly, for the trailing arm bushings... i believe i've read about bolt-in bushings, that make for easier replacement? Any opinions on those?

Thanks in advance guys, hittin up the local dealership this week... Lemme know!!

[engsr]

Do not go the polyurethane route, whatever you do. The major con of the PU is that they have no "memory" meaning once it's deformed, it's permanently deformed. Rubber's elasticity allows it to retrain some of its original form. Granted, the rubber isn't as stiff as the PU but it will definitely last longer.

Hardrace and PIC both have a hard rubber bushing kit (stiffer than OEM), so that's an alternative to the pricey Mugen ones. I'm thinking of going the PIC route.

If you're after OEM bushings, PM Trenell (wildoutwhitegsr) as he has a complete set for a GS-R and is looking to get rid of it (as far as I know).

Oh, the ITR shock won't mount to the GS-R LCA.

[BestodaBest]

Which rear LCA's can a ITR rear sway bar mount up to? Do aftermarket rear LCA's have to be ITR spec? Or just 94-01 integra?

[MilesM]

PI is not the way to go. Can't handle track abuse for extended periods of time. They feel good when they're first put in, but go bad fast and never come back. Become a wear item.

Bryan's suggestion is a good one and the best way to go for you IMO. That said, we've been replacing all our bushings to solid bushings. Not the best for street use since there is no give, but on the track, there's nothing better. And they last much longer. Does put more stress on the subframe and control arms since there's no give in them.

http://www.specialprojectsms.com/

^^ Kiwi has been supplying us with a lot of solid bushing that have been top notch. He also built Anthony's last ITR.

Check with Carl too, since he's great at sourcing parts and pricing.

[MilesM]

Which rear LCA's can a ITR rear sway bar mount up to? Do aftermarket rear LCA's have to be ITR spec? Or just 94-01 integra?

All should accept them. Yes. And LCAs have to be ITR spec to accept ITR shocks.

[engsr]

^ "Yes" to what? lol

The ITR rear sway can be attached to any 94/01 Integra rear LCA, OEM or aftermarket - it doesn't have to be ITR specific. The only time the rear LCA has to be ITR specific is IF you're using an ITR rear shock (OEM or aftermarket).

Are you confused yet? :D

ninja edit - beat by Miles's edit. :)

[BestodaBest]

Interesting question.. Does it cost PIPs to swap between the 94-97 body parts, and the 98-01?

[BestodaBest]

I did read in the rulebook that you lose 1 bpip for bumper mod, but does that include swapping with OEM? I don't assume that there's any performance enhancement as a result.

[engsr]

I think the rule is for the bumper support and not the cover. The covers can probably be swapped (ie. the 98+ conversion) under the update-backdate rule. However, if you add the ITR lip (or any lip for that matter) that will fall under aero mods for front air dam/spoiler.