Solosprint PIPs for ECU

[nrg3k]

Anybody know if the following PIP applies to a vtec motor swap ECU change:

5.0.C Engine - Engine Electronic and Fuel System
.1 Naturally aspirated vehicles: Modification to the computerized component(s) of the ignition or engine management system (e.g. chipping the ECU or reprogramming it from OE by other means for any reason). Also includes modifications under 5.0 C.3. 2 PIPs

What i'm asking is if my ECU change for vtec actually counts in this category. The Air/Fuel map is the same as stock - but the added chip to control vtec is a modification. Its not technically a reflash/reprogramming, but a chip is definitely added to an existing socket. Otherwise, is this mod included as part of the motor-swap points, since is part of the swap (without it, the swap is effectively non-existent)?

DJM:>

[MilesM]

I think you could argue it. Shoot Arek or one of the tech dudes for clarification. There should be a bit of wiggle room cuz it doesn't sound like a performance improvement - unless it is a performance mod then you need to claim it.

[nrg3k]

i was also thinking that if i used a stock ECU from the car the motor came from, then it wouldn't even be a consideration. Only reason i care is cause i actually claimed this last year and would like to drop it this year if possible.

DJM:>

[mxqisit]

Modification to the computerized component(s) of the ignition or engine management system

Seems clear to me that if you change the ECU you take the points.

[nrg3k]

when you do a swap, you remove points that would otherwise be taken as part of that process. for example, doing a motor swap similar to mine is also like doing a simple head-only swap. If you generalize, that would mean i'd take points for the swap itself, PLUS more points for all the bits that changed in the motor (possible bore/stroke, displacement, valves, cam, exhaust mani, TB, intake, etc). My understanding with a swap, was they combine the end resulting power in exchange for a points count (sum of the parts vs whole package).

I'm at a point where i'm trying to decide if swap is better than taking individual points for the bits on my motor that are different from stock. In this case, only the head of the motor is technically different, and that includes the vtec control system as far as i can tell. Thoughts?

DJM:>

[ShaneG]

Not that I have any say, but a stock ECU from the swap would/should not require further Piping.

[Krispy]

You can only use the ECU that is OE with the swapped engine (ie, USD B18C5 engine, must use USD B18C5 ECU). Any other variant is a pip.

[Krispy]

FYI, Arek isn't really on the CCC anymore. For questions, Stephan, Will, & myself are the HADA CCC primes.

[ShaneG]

Ha, I just sent an e-mail to the CCC.

Krispy,
will a re-flashed -to stock- ecu be acceptable?

in my case, having the flashable ECU programmed to a stock JDM B18C R map.

my next step is to be sure that that program actually exists:confused:

more e-mails to be sent...dun dun dun!

Sorry for the hijack:o

[nrg3k]

you seem to be on-topic ;) so its all good

now i need to find out if my CX + vtec chip is actually = to stock si ecu :)

DJM:>

[Krispy]

Ha, I just sent an e-mail to the CCC.

Krispy,
will a re-flashed -to stock- ecu be acceptable?

in my case, having the flashable ECU programmed to a stock JDM B18C R map.

my next step is to be sure that that program actually exists:confused:

more e-mails to be sent...dun dun dun!

Sorry for the hijack:o


Sounds like you modified it, so you may be pushing your luck. Are you doing this just to escape the cost of buying the right ECU? If the programs are exact to OE than it could be considered equivalent, however at the end of the day something has been 'modified'. If you go down this route, than you may want to get a CCC quorum to confirm (think you can send queries via the email address on the CCdb, ccc@dfjasdkfj.com or something like that). If it were myself, I'd just run the OE ECU, less questions.

[nrg3k]

This is a common complaint with solo1 i guess - if we are budget motorsports, and can't afford the OE component, we modify the original to spec. I personally have no interest in spending more money for something that i already have - i'd rather take the pips and not be competitive.

DJM:>

[MilesM]

Get a quarum together and make your case. Only costs a few emails and some time. I can see krispies point though - could open a back door for abuse.

[ShaneG]

Chris, I am learning as I go,
The chasis is OBD 1 the engine should be OBD2 - It has been converted to OBD1 Alternator and Dizzy - which mates to the chassis wiring harness. The stock ECU for the engine (2000 OBD2) *I don't think* will plug into the harness.

The e-mail has been sent to get an official word.

The funny thing is that almost everything is based on the competitors word, as there is no scrutineering. Whatever the decision is, I'll live with it or try to find another appropiate solution. or run at the bottom of the next class:cool:

[ShaneG]

Miles, I agree 100% which is why I e-mailed the CCC - I am not trying to hide anything!...but if I had chipped the GSR computer (last year or the year before) and did not declare it....Who would know? I am happy knowing that I am not cheating and would be equally happy running a chipped ECU knowing that I was not cheating because it was a stock program. *edit* the correct stock program

[Solid Alibye]

you seem to be on-topic ;) so its all good

now i need to find out if my CX + vtec chip is actually = to stock si ecu :)

DJM:>

Well I have a spare stock P28 ECU (SOHC VtaK) so if you want we can dyno that vs your chipped ecu! :D

But personally I think that running the stock ECU for what ever swap you're running should not be pipped. As car as running a chipped ecu with a stock engine mapping is definately a gray area because who's to say it's actually "stock mapping" burned into the chip...

[Solid Alibye]

Chris, I am learning as I go,
The chasis is OBD 1 the engine should be OBD2 - It has been converted to OBD1 Alternator and Dizzy - which mates to the chassis wiring harness. The stock ECU for the engine (2000 OBD2) *I don't think* will plug into the harness.


Yup! The ecu connectors on a OBD 1 chassis is different from an OBDII vehicle. Heck OBDII A and OBDII B ecu connectors are different!

To make a stock OBDII P73 ITR ecu to work in Shane's OBD1 'teg would be way to much work, especially with having to convert the whole car to OBDII status. (extra engine sensors, more emissions crap ie evap system stuff $$$$$$$$$$$$)

So the more simpler (ie. less expensive/affordable) way to get the car to run well is to use an OBD 1 ECU w/chipped stock ITR program.

[Maxi]

Shane, if they won't let you flash your P28 to JDM P73 specs (which is definitely an available program...talk to Adrian), all you need is a conversion harness and you can run the JDM P73 ECU that goes with your engine. Both OBD1 to OBD2A and OBD2B harnesses are available and they aren't terribly expensive:

http://www.boomslang.us/obd1to2.htm

[Slowpoke]

Yup! The ecu connectors on a OBD 1 chassis is different from an OBDII vehicle. Heck OBDII A and OBDII B ecu connectors are different!

To make a stock OBDII P73 ITR ecu to work in Shane's OBD1 'teg would be way to much work, especially with having to convert the whole car to OBDII status. (extra engine sensors, more emissions crap ie evap system stuff $$$$$$$$$$$$)

So the more simpler (ie. less expensive/affordable) way to get the car to run well is to use an OBD 1 ECU w/chipped stock ITR program.

If he did not connect the extra engine sensors, emissions crap, etc. then this does not sound like a valid engine swap since it was not completed. Claiming
"stock" HP values for a motor without emissions or other sensors connected is not valid.

[ShaneG]

Steve,
what do you suggest?
claim the GSR take points for:
7 - head swap
1 - Intake
2 - ecu
2 - compression change
3- crankshaft etc
for a total of 15

I don't see anywhere assignment of pips for emission stuff like evap stuff etc so I don't know how to claim that.

anyway, this would give me the option of a dyno submission?

and still have to claim half the PIPs? (the last part is not clear to me)

[nrg3k]

Well I have a spare stock P28 ECU (SOHC VtaK) so if you want we can dyno that vs your chipped ecu! :D

But personally I think that running the stock ECU for what ever swap you're running should not be pipped. As car as running a chipped ecu with a stock engine mapping is definately a gray area because who's to say it's actually "stock mapping" burned into the chip...

In my case, my ECU is not reflashed - its the same map as when it ran the non-vtec motor, but with a control chip inserted into an available slot to... control vtec. :) i'm still on the fence which is better for my case, since im soooo close between engine swap option, and just taking points for the head, ecu, etc


DJM:>

[Slowpoke]

I don't see anywhere assignment of pips for emission stuff like evap stuff etc so I don't know how to claim that.


Disabling emissions is 1 PIP under 5.0.B.4

My question is, what else was not connected? VTEC cam control? etc.



anyway, this would give me the option of a dyno submission?

and still have to claim half the PIPs? (the last part is not clear to me)

You would not take half, you'd take 100% of the first 5 and 25% of the remaining 10. So, 7.5. Okay, in your case it works out to half. :o But it isn't half all of the time!! :rolleyes:

There's also the GPS data validation option for a minimum of 2.5 PIPs.

BTW, we're discussing your submission. That vagueness about not knowing what is in the motor is why I've considered asking for dyno plots for all swaps to back up the claim.

-----

A chap was telling me yesterday about a Production 2 class winning rally car that his colleague bought. After he bought it, he found it took him over a year to actually make it legal for Production 2 class...

[ShaneG]

Thanks for the reply Steve,

here is the problem with the swap rule. I have not disabled the emissions on the GSR (OBD1) ...but maybe for the OBD2 ITR motor :confused: The tech guys could better answer that question. Maybe a Pip is appropiate? I wonder if the car passed the drive clean would the pip still apply?

there should not be anything not connected. the only thing would be the OBD2 specific sensors.

as far as the Vagueness of the claim - I am just questioning how it would apply to any swap from anything other than a brand new factory motor! That is my point. any motor JDM or USDM had a previous owner who could have modified it. no one would know without stripping the engine and rebuilding it to be sure it was 100% OEM...no one does this, I will not do this (it would kinda defeat the purpose of swapping an engine vs rebuilding, no?) and if I did rebuild the GSR motor you (the royal you) would take my word that I have not shaved the head, changed the cams, etc.

As I said, I believe it to be OEM and have no reason to believe otherwise.

as I also said I'd be happy doing a dyno pull to provide a sure starting point. I am still not 100% sure about how the pips are applied. Is this correct?...the 7.5 (in my case) are applied to the GSR starting point (where the disabled emissions question adds some confusion) and then it would be the higher of the pip count or the Dyno #s?!?!?!?

and I would still have to verify that the ITR motor does not have any other "pipable" changes from the GSR

ugg!

BTW can you explain the GPS - 2.5 points? I don't quite get that. 2.5 pips to verify that the rated hp# is accurate? or after 2.5 pips you can use the GPS to prove ???? that the mods were useless?, were worth 5pips? - Not trying to be daft, even if it comes across that way.

all I am asking for is a fair and level playing field. the GSR had 260,000km there is no way it had the original power like when it was new, but the rules said tough $h!t...Ok so now I have a lower mileage engine but I might have to take extra pips because it does not have a 2nd O2 sensor and evap cannister, gas line back to the tank or whatever? maybe I am missing how a bunch of power can be unlocked by switching an OBD2 engine to OBD1...if so, somebody please tell me:)

This might seem unusual, but I am trying to be up front and very public about the level of tune of my car, I am not trying to side step the rules to gain an unfair advantage and I am trying to keep from going broke while enjoying this hobby - Of course that could be the problem right there :) - and maintaining a fair (as possible) field to play on.

Last question. In this case, I am claiming a swap. if the CCC asks for a dyno submission (again, which I an 100% cool with) do I still have to calculate and figure out what the pips would be, and would someone be able to help me calculate them?

Thanks Again

[ShaneG]

Whoops the head swap is 4 not 7
so
1 intake
2 header
1 (maybe) for emissions
2 ECU
4 head
3 crank

13 maybe 12??

so the first 5 + 1/4 the rest (13-5=8 *.25 =2 (1.75?) 6.75 or 7 epips I'll use 7 for ease of use


Can someone do me a favor?
please double check my calculations, if I missed anything please let me know.

I entered my car in the CCDB.
Before engine pips, I input the suspension points and the Gearing and LSD pips giving me 77.8 pips - (I used 2500 lbs as will be doing a race weight) so 77.8 + 7 epips take me to 84.8

then I entered a Type R (USDM which is 3-5 hp less than the JDM Spec R motor) entered the same suspension points, (did not need to add the 2.5 pips for Gearing and LSD) I entered a race weight of 2500 lbs and Voila 81.7

Then, Race weight 2500 lbs, swap 200hp 134tq, suspension and gearing / LSD and 83.2

and lastly, Kurt said that the engine dyno'd (sp?) @176 WHP IIRC with the tuned ECU. if that was on a dyno-jet,(I know ...if) that would work out to 203 hp so... Race weight 2500 lbs, converted crank hp - 203hp, suspension and gearing / LSD and 83.6

how different are these theoretical cars?

better brakes for the "R" but brakes are free, just expensive:p bigger sway bars, stiffer body, "Type R" stickers - again free mod, and uber cool but we don't pip "cool"

I know, I know... ITR envy:D

someone set me straight!

I had one more question, but I forgot what that was, Meh!

I *should* still run in GT1-R but would have to put some stuff back in. I ran at 2500# last year but have taken some weight out so I should be less than it was last year so a few panels will go back in *shrug*:(

[Slowpoke]

First I have to say that going into this season, we're lucky to have dyno plots still allowed. There was a lot of compromise in that from both camps to end up where we did.

The 2.5 PIP minimum for backing your dyno plot up with GPS acceleration data was to prevent the number of dyno plots that were growing exponentially each year and reduce the number of Sub-Stock HP claims.

I am pleasantly surprised to see all of those combinations actually all end you up in the same class! Amazing.

I appreciate you being as honest as you have been, and in the light of day, I'll give you better guidance on how to claim it.

[ShaneG]

all working out to the same class is interesting. but check out these numbers

I went back to the CCDB and changed the weights

the PiP swap can run at 2495lbs
the Dyno plot can run at 2390lbs
the Swap only can run at 2355lbs
and the comprable ITR, dun dun dun!
an ITR with 3-5 less hp can run at 2240lbs

a USDM ITR with the JDM engine could run at 2300lbs
edit for clarification* USDM ITR with coilovers weight reduction etc - matching the level of prep I am running the GSR at

I will not be able to get the car to weigh 2355 (I don't think)

but for our torqueless wonders those weight differences are HUGE:eek: