View Full Version : Who drives a Del Sol?
I am building a track-only Del Sol. Just wondering if anybody out there has one for street or track use?
MilesM
03-11-2008, 06:10 PM
Lots of EGs. Taylor used to have one. Geo tracked one way back, but nick-named it Del Slo.
There's a member about to renew (who's also coming to the HADA track day) named John who has one with a JDM D15B (used to belong to another HADA member named Rafal)
I used to auto-x with another guy named richard who had a blue automatic base model one who swapped in a Si motor, then supercharged it, then swapped in a B18C, then sold it to William from a certain brake company who stripped the hell out of it... then I think it ended up in your garage...
Taylor
03-12-2008, 07:39 AM
Oh is his Williams old one? Yeah that's the only one I've seen tracked before. :p
BTW, I've had TWO! :p
Yes, I purchased my car from William. Yes, he gutted it beyond reason. It will be back in action this year, and VERY light weight.
So are you saying for sure that I have a B18C in my car? Seriously, i have no idea what engine/tranny I have and I don't know where to find it stamped. (I'm such a newb).
So there is ONE member with a Del Sol besides mine? Looking forward to seeing it... maybe I can convince him to let me make a mould out of his back end so I can replace the sheet metal that i'm building with fiber :)
No, Richard took the B18 back out, I'm pretty sure your car has a D16VTEC in it.
No, Richard took the B18 back out, I'm pretty sure your car has a D16VTEC in it.
I am PRETTY SURE that it is not VTEC. Is that the sort of thing that a monkey with a brain tumor could notice? I don't recall any additional power in the high revs with my limited track time last spring.
I am PRETTY SURE that it is not VTEC. Is that the sort of thing that a monkey with a brain tumor could notice? I don't recall any additional power in the high revs with my limited track time last spring.
Um. I'm pretty sure a monkey with a brain tumor would notice... VTEC isn't exactly subtle on the ears.
Trust me. If you've had that throttle wide open and you have VTEC, you'd know.
HBomb
03-12-2008, 12:37 PM
when does your revlimiter kick in?
6800ish = non-VTEC D-series (Civic non-Si / Del Sol S)
7000ish = non-VTEC B-series (Integra)
7400ish = VTEC D-series (92-00 Civic Si / Del Sol Si)
8200ish = B18C1 GSR / B16A Del Sol VTEC
8600ish = B18C5 Type-R
Hanif
Um. I'm pretty sure a monkey with a brain tumor would notice... VTEC isn't exactly subtle on the ears.
Trust me. If you've had that throttle wide open and you have VTEC, you'd know.
Don't forget Opal... this is a D series... it's just a single cam, VTEC is only on the exhaust (I think) and it is pretty blah.
P.S.: I'll try not to take that monkey with a brain tumour comment personally... LOL
[QUOTE=HBomb;3540]when does your revlimiter kick in?[QUOTE]
I've only had this thing out for 1 lapping day on dirty old streets and 1 session on R's. I havn't pushed it enough to be dinging the limiter.
Is there a definate place on the block that I could look for a stamp?
Don't forget Opal... this is a D series... it's just a single cam, VTEC is only on the exhaust (I think) and it is pretty blah.
P.S.: I'll try not to take that monkey with a brain tumour comment personally... LOL
Ah, okay. I shift by pitch, so I tend to notice stuff :)
Wait. You're a monkey?
Matt, you should at the very least know the difference between a single cam motor and a twin cam motor.
Here is a twin cam B18C like the one that used to be in your car when Richard owned it...
http://rev-olutionspeed.com/images/ENGINES/HONDA_engines/HONDA_B18C_GSR_LG_4.jpg
and here is a single cam motor like the one that I suspect is in there now...
http://www.attarco.com/images/D15B.JPG
MilesM
03-12-2008, 01:59 PM
http://my.prostreetonline.com/photos/data/500/EngineNumber.jpg
The engine code is stamped on the block to the left of the header to the right of the tranny. See pix. But just looking at them should tell you if it's a single cam or dual cam.
Those engines are WAAAY too clean for me to identify with! haha... I have a SOHC, it looks like, at least. I will try to find that stamp next time i have my hands on the car. That may be a couple weeks away. So much progress happened this past weekend that I will be taking a couple weeks off to gather the last few remaining parts. I can almost feel the G's already.
DeanE
03-13-2008, 09:51 AM
I can't wait until Matt is in HADA for a season or two and he's doing engine swaps with his eyes closed on his lunch hours.
If HADA can take Maxi from oil change noob to magazine scribe, anyone has hope... :P
Yes, stories of people blowing up engines and being back the next day to compete was one of the big draws to HADA, and to Hondas in general.
I am very much looking forward to the day when I can say "this car handles to the best of its ability". Because that is the day that I will buy an LSD turbo VTEC monster to drop in this car. When that happens, I strip the rest of the stuff out of the car that is not needed for it to go fast.
Solid Alibye
03-13-2008, 11:47 AM
I am very much looking forward to the day when I can say "this car handles to the best of its ability". Because that is the day that I will buy an LSD turbo VTEC monster to drop in this car. When that happens, I strip the rest of the stuff out of the car that is not needed for it to go fast.
LSD? Yeap that you'll will need (believe me after my first season of slalom and some lapping "peg-leg" sucks ass. Nothing by wheel spin on corner exit with my B-series swap!
You don't NEED boost + VtAK to go fast.... just good training, skill, seat time and a HUGE set of ballz! (or.. umm "ovaries?" for the women folk in the club!)
:D
MilesM
03-13-2008, 12:06 PM
Hehe. It's funny how many of us start off as wanting to go boost and quickly give up. :) Too much heat for track use. All our turbo guys have now come to their senses. :D
Hey, I will have a D Series ZC LSD tranny and intermediate shaft for sale in a few weeks.
The tranny is in need of a rebuild, but it is and LSD....
Do you dangle sandwiches in front of hobos and then speed off laughing? You sick bastard. I really don't have the time in my schedule to rebuilt a tranny and get it into my car. I probably don't have the budget either. I'm working with what I've got for this season. "Just get it to the track" has been my objective this spring. I probably won't do anything about the engine or tranny for two years. Then I figure... if I'm going to do anything, i want to go BIIIG. Why not have the fastest car in the corners AND the straights?
You sick bastard!:) That I am......
Funny, Matt seems to know Wes well already... LOL
Seriously Matt, the VTi LSD tranny is a cheap ($300) easy mod that will do wonders for your car, I love mine!!!
Damn you serpents! all of you! *sob*
Yes... i WANT the tranny... yes, i WANT the grip and the control and the joy... in time, friends... in time... Right now i just want to drive a car on a race track!
Damn you serpents! all of you! *sob*
Yes... i WANT the tranny... yes, i WANT the grip and the control and the joy... in time, friends... in time... Right now i just want to drive a car on a race track!
Well, just remember to bring some spare inside-front tires. :)
Meh, if it gets bad I can rotate half way through the day.
Being the first day out with this car, it will probably not spend TOO much time at its 100% limits.
Taylor
03-20-2008, 01:48 PM
Yeah seriously... no turbo.. sucks for Solosprint..especially in July.
nrg3k
03-22-2008, 09:30 AM
not that you need to hear it again, but LSD owns for any EG chassis - i've got one in my SOHC hatch :D Good luck with the build and always upgrade the driver before you upgrade power !
DJM:>
Yeah, the LSD will be nice when it goes in (probably next season).
Upgrading the driver first is totally out the window. I tried my best to get a good education while driving my Mazda bone stock for 20+ autox's and some solosprint stuff, but nothing in the Honda so far.
The honda's upgrades are all in weight reduction, suspension and braking. I will not be touching the engine till I have learned to handle everything that I have, and I've learned to tune everything I have. After that, i want to install a monster engine rather than upgrade what I have.
Thanks for the well-wishes!
my car's body work is done and it is painted! WOOOO!!! Pictures to come shortly. Those of you that saw it last year will be impressed.
Can anybody tell me if the front hubs are interchangable? I'm thinking I should pick up a spares because of my grippy tires; it would be nice to pick up just one.
Solid Alibye
03-28-2008, 05:26 PM
Can anybody tell me if the front hubs are interchangable? I'm thinking I should pick up a spares because of my grippy tires; it would be nice to pick up just one.
yes the front hubs are the same, left and right.. BUT....
the hubs are pressed into the front wheel bearings; which are held in by a huge C-clip and are (bearings) pressed into the front knuckles;
...not really something you be able to swap at the track; besides every time you pull a hub the inner race of the wheel bearing comes off with it.
(btw; why do want spare hubs anyways? even with "grippy" tires?)
Don't these cars burn up hubs and wheel bearings with sticky rubber? Should i just not worry about it?
In other news, the front end is now affixed properly. The sharp exposed metal in the car is covered or removed. The wheel studs, rotors and pads are in. Fire extinguisher is in. Painted blue. A few stickers are on it for the people that helped me.
Right now I'm taking a break before I make my tow/tie hooks, then I need to get gas, bleed brake lines and do an oil change. Load it up in the truck, tie it down and wait till the 19th :D Sweet Jesus it's close.
I finally got a chance to see the front of the engine and I have a D16Z6 motor.
D16Z6
Found in
1992-1995 Honda Civic EX, EX-V and SI
1992-1995 Honda Civic ESi (European Market)
1993-1995 Honda Del Sol Si (only USDM)
1993-1995 Honda Del Sol ESi (European)
Displacement : 1590 cm³
Bore and Stroke : 75 mm X 90 mm
Compression : 9.2:1
Power : 125 hp (93 kW) @ 6600 rpm & 106 ft·lbf @ 5200 rpm
Redline : 7200 rpm
Fuel Cut : 7411 rpm
Valvetrain : SOHC VTEC
Fuel Control : OBD-1 MPFI
Head Code : P08
ECU Code : P28
So yeah, i have VTEC and I didn't even know it. AEM cold air intake and straight-through exhaust with just a cherry bomb... 135hp? 130?
Don't these cars burn up hubs and wheel bearings with sticky rubber? Should i just not worry about it?
Don't worry about it at all. When you hear noise, start thinking about it. When it gets louder, worry. I've only replaced bearings on three corners of my ride in the 9 years that I've owned it, and it's received a fair amount of track time (and the occasional bit of hang time.)
Guillermo
03-29-2008, 03:56 PM
AEM cold air intake and straight-through exhaust with just a cherry bomb... 135hp? 130?
How loud is your car at high RPM and full throttle?
Most tracks have strict noise restrictions and Dunnville is one of them!
If your car is very loud consider getting a muffler that actually muffles to avoid the disappointment of being told you can't drive your car on the track.
G, it was quite loud with the straight pipes, but the cherry bomb has quieted it down significantly. Does anybody out there have experience with cherry bombs, D16Z6's and decibells?
Anybody in brampton got a dB meter?
How is the test done? Maybe I could just mount a V-shaped baffel on the outlet of the muffler to split the sound...
Thanks for the heads up, btw.
Car is done. Painted. Safe.
I am going to buy window nets at the solosprint open house, so i need to install those, fill it up with gas and start driving!
woot.
DeanE
03-31-2008, 09:20 AM
Pics or Ban! :P
I know, i know... i have pics on my phone and my computer at home is not hooked up. I need to get my Bluetooth dongle to work so i can upload some pics. It would be nice to upload some proper pics from a digi cam. Maybe i'll start a new thread with ALL the pics from start to finish.
Life Sucks when you have an inoperative Dongle
:D
I might bring the Del Sol to the Solosprint Open House on Sunday to see if I can get it tech'd.
Is there anybody in this club who could tech this car for me? I have a number of mechanics in my family and they've all helped me work on this car. We all know that it is safe, but solosprint officials will be on this like stink on a monkey because of the way it looked last year.
MilesM
04-01-2008, 10:01 AM
Tech for me has always been Joe or Derek checking my battery mount and looking for a tag on my helmet. :p Pretty sure half the guys there can look through it and tell you what you need right away.
Can I count on someone to bring a dB meter to the open house? Anybody here have one?
Yeah, in my mazda they basically checked my battery and my helmet and let me loose. When i bring the Del Sol out, everybody will look at it just out of interest and all the CCC will be there with magnifying glasses making sure that every square inch is up to spec.
MilesM
04-01-2008, 11:00 AM
Call CSC and see if they sell them. You might be able to borrow it to 'test' - you know to make sure it works (wink, wink) - before you buy. If it's a straight end pipe you can also mount a second cherry bomb on the tailpipe.
mxqisit
04-01-2008, 11:06 AM
I'd be careful about noise regulations. Each site is different and performs different tests to check for conformity.
Presently I have a cheery bomb exiting the side of the car. I don't think I'd pass tech with another cherry bomb sticking two feet out the side of the car. I think I saw an advertisement for "muffler silencers" at CT before... I will have to try to find something like this. Obviously they are for all those people who bought nice exhausts and get hassled by the cops.
Adam,
If i bring the Del Sol to the solosprint open house, could you bring your dB meter?
Adam,
If i bring the Del Sol to the solosprint open house, could you bring your dB meter?
CSC Racing may not appreciate that since it is a Sunday......
Hm.
Does anybody living in brampton have a dB meter? I will be rather unhappy if i get to dunville and i'm told i can't drive my car on the track. I don't think they'd let me drive the cube van either, so i'd be going home angry.
Hm.
Does anybody living in brampton have a dB meter? I will be rather unhappy if i get to dunville and i'm told i can't drive my car on the track. I don't think they'd let me drive the cube van either, so i'd be going home angry.
I have one ...I am in Mississauga (South) QEW and ErinMillls Parkway
I am home tonight - call if you want to grab it
Moose
416-576-3975
AndyC
04-02-2008, 07:57 PM
I will be at CSC this Sunday and can bring my Db meter.Calabogie's sound limit is 100db 15ft in front and rear of the car and 92db at a full throttle pass by at 50ft from the side.
Thanks for the offers.
I will let you all know if I can bring the Del Sol to CSC. Right now it does not look promising.
If I can not, I will take up on your offer, Moose. Unless you'd like to drop by the shop and check out the car. It is in Brampton at Rutherford and Clarence.
Okay, so some news from the scrutineers...
I have a little bit more work to do on my car (reinforce the strut towers up front, no biggie). But that means that I won't be bringing my car to CSC.
I would like to take up on an offer to borrow a dB meter. A couple options... either I meet someone at CSC and afterwards we come by the shop (Rutherford and Clarence, Brampton), test the car and go out for some pop. Or, maybe I could borrow someone's dB meter from now till Dunnville and it gets returned with some pop.
If someone is kind enough to help me out... I'm planning to get to CSC around 1:30. Since many of you don't know me, i'm the guy with the short red hair and scruffy face.
Otherwise, I think I will just go and find some econo-muffler and hack mine off and weld on a new one. Though I'm sure i've seen Mufler Silencers advertised...
THANKS A MILLION IN ADVANCE!!!!!!!
AndyC
04-06-2008, 09:35 AM
Mat - I'll be there.
Andy - Old fart with glasses and a goatie.
Thanks, Andy. I will be arriving between 1 and 2 and I'll be there for a while since I need to do some shopping as well as sign ups.
Sound results...
Originally I had straight 2" pipes. This was ear piercing.
I put on a cherry bomb. This was fricken loud, but not painful.
I swapped the cherry out for a muffler with mild baffling - 104dB@15ft
Added a catalytic converted from a dodge minivan - 96-99dB
Car is ready to go.
I am really unable to try a pass-by test, but I assume that test will be performed from the outside of the track? My exhaust exits to right; i should be okay.
This morning the strut tower bracing was added. Major difference there! The car no longer twists when being jacked up.
I am about to go and pick spots to weld on the mounting hardware for my window nets. After that I have an airbox to protect my air filter from rocks/rain, add gas, strap it down in the truck, fuel the truck and it is all ready to go!
Guillermo
04-12-2008, 10:38 PM
96-99dB may still be too loud :eek:
It's very close to the limit permissible at Calabogie
http://www.calabogiemotorsports.com/content/view/18/33/lang,en/
jason_alt
04-13-2008, 11:11 AM
Calabogie's standing measurement is 15ft from vehicle front and rear at maximum allowable rpm. Simply rev it 1000rpm short of that.
Same goes for the drive by. Drive it 1000rpm short.
Truethfully, I have no trust for the reliability of this motor. I personally did not source and install this engine, so there's no telling if it has massive mileage or improperly torqued internals. Given that, I will likely not be driving it at 7400rpm. The tach in my car redlines at 6500, i think. That's where the stock non-vtec motor redlined. I will likely drive using that as my shift point. My purpose in going to the dunnville school is to better learn turning technique, not pushing the gas and shifting gears. Methinks I'll be fine.
mxqisit
04-13-2008, 06:31 PM
Methinks I'll be fine.
Famous last words?
Car was spectacular. Braking and turning was incredibly confidence inspiring. This is exactly what I want in a track car. Maybe a little more motor, though... next year?
Found my oil leak. The oil pan has a hole in it. The hole is on the high-side of the oil pan so it never dripped when the car was not running. My cousin is going to pull it off, weld up the hole and reinstall it. I had already purchased a new oil pan gasket and plug gasket just in case, so those will be installed with the welded up pan.
Guillermo
05-05-2008, 09:47 PM
Great opportunity to add some oil pan baffles using one way hinged gates.
nrg3k
05-05-2008, 11:20 PM
how important is this in a D series motor? i've put decent G forces on my car and i am curious what my limits would be before baffles would help.
oops - thread-jack :)
DJM:>
how important is this in a D series motor? i've put decent G forces on my car and i am curious what my limits would be before baffles would help.
oops - thread-jack :)
DJM:>
The OBD-0 and OBD-1 SOHC D-series Motors have good pan baffling from the factory ...... the pickup in the sump is well surrounded ... unlike the "B"s that have no baffling what so ever ... with that said on a big course like Mosport with sustained long corners some additional might be beneficial.
The 1.6L motors in general are VERY stout and will take a beating ...in part due to there beafy crank and full width crank girdle ... I tried to blow mine, and could not.
Note: (The OBD-2 SOHC's suck donkey balls ... they have oiling issues and WILL eventually spin Cyl #3 rod bearing's)
nrg3k
05-06-2008, 08:13 AM
does the same apply to the 1.5L ODB-1 Ds (D15B) ? i assume yes - i'll probably be fine until i get more power. Thanks!
and now back to our regularly schedule DelSolshow
DJM:>
does the same apply to the 1.5L ODB-1 Ds (D15B) ? i assume yes - i'll probably be fine until i get more power. Thanks!
and now back to our regularly schedule DelSolshow
DJM:>
YUP ...I am pretty sure that the 1.5L and 1.6L share oil-pans
Anyways ...who cares .... you can buy a new motor cheaper than what a baffled pan will cost anyways :)
thread-jack to your heart's content... I learn from it all :)
I will not be doing any additional fancy-work. I am relying on the kindness of my cousin to do a great deal of work on my car to get it ready for next weekend, so a simple remove, repair, replace is more than enough to ask for.
Good to know that this oil pan is already pretty good in the baffling department. My car will definately hold some high G's, I was worried about that.
pigeon
05-06-2008, 09:34 AM
^ What alignment settings is your car at?
Everything is pretty stock-aligned right now. I will be doing my alignment between the school and the competition. Skunk2 adjustable upper control arms should allow me to get -4* camber up front; I am not sure how much I need or want, though. Right now my braking power is phenominal, I'm just worried that I may lose some of that if I go to -4*.
What sort of caster adjustment is available to me? If i could get some +caster, i would generate dynamic negative camber and I could use maybe -3* camber to maintain braking power and use the dynamic camber for better cornering... Once that is all done i can drop my front tire pressures.
Any thoughts?
Everything is pretty stock-aligned right now. I will be doing my alignment between the school and the competition. Skunk2 adjustable upper control arms should allow me to get -4* camber up front; I am not sure how much I need or want, though. Right now my braking power is phenominal, I'm just worried that I may lose some of that if I go to -4*.
What sort of caster adjustment is available to me? If i could get some +caster, i would generate dynamic negative camber and I could use maybe -3* camber to maintain braking power and use the dynamic camber for better cornering... Once that is all done i can drop my front tire pressures.
Any thoughts?
Neg camber up front should be about -2.8 and about -2 in the rear to start ...you need to fine tune with tire temps.
Caster ... there is no adjustable castor ...HOWEVER you can flip the front upper control arms left to right and gain a bunch of caster (the ball joint is mounted asymetric in the arm)
Moose
what's "a bunch"? My mazda can gain some caster by turning the shock tops and 1* makes a noticible difference even on the street. Where does your suggestion of 2.8/2 come from? btw, I'm running V70A 235s, if that makes a difference.
pigeon
05-06-2008, 10:40 AM
Moose, do you know if that would work on the DC2 chassis as well? We'd love to get some caster if possible..
engsr
05-06-2008, 10:54 AM
^ I don't know how much you will gain but the upper arms can be swapped, and you will gain caster.
pigeon
05-06-2008, 11:02 AM
Crap, and we just installed new Skunk2 upper arms the proper way.. lol
Thats awesome, thx
Does anyone know how much? Just cause the car doesn't have power steering so I dont want TOO too much
what's "a bunch"? My mazda can gain some caster by turning the shock tops and 1* makes a noticible difference even on the street. Where does your suggestion of 2.8/2 come from? btw, I'm running V70A 235s, if that makes a difference.
About a degree's I think ... I do not know for sure
The Canber settings come from a bunch of us running EG/DC/EK's ... itis a good starting point ... your driving style will dictate (shown by your tire temps) the final camber settings.
Because the EG/EF/DA/DC/EK cars double wishbone front suspension gains camber relative to body roll, you do not need as much static camber as you would with a Mac strut car.
Moose
Moose, do you know if that would work on the DC2 chassis as well? We'd love to get some caster if possible..
YUP ...EG and DC upper ares are the same and can be swapped L/R
Moose
pigeon
05-06-2008, 11:42 AM
Matt, its different than our Proteges. My Protege responded well with 2.5* front and rear, and had pretty close to even tire temps.
Jays Integra we tried 2.5* front and 2.5* rear, the front was good but it was too much in the rear... the insides of the tires heated up a lot more than the outside. So we're going to lower it a bit and try again, this time measuring temps with the probe instead of the inf. red... so we could actually get accurate temps.
Thanks Moose, we'll swap the arms and see how it goes :)
Thanks for the info. I did not really consider the roll-dynamic camber. Is any hardware required to get -2* camber in the rear? I am pretty stock back there except for lower springs and koni yellows.
Thanks for the info. I did not really consider the roll-dynamic camber. Is any hardware required to get -2* camber in the rear? I am pretty stock back there except for lower springs and koni yellows.
Skunk-2, OmniPower, Hardrace,M-factory, T1R , etc all make adjustable rear upper control arms that allow you to adjust camber.
More Caster provides more dynamic Toe
Moose
Okay. I won't be buying anything new to bolt on, so I will have to use stock rear camber setting and play with the front end for balance.
If i choose not to do the alignment myself (with help, since i don't know what i'm doing), what shops could I go to that would know what an adjustable upper control arm is? The car is in Brampton. I suppose Four Star Motorsport is an option...
Slowpoke
05-06-2008, 03:46 PM
Fourstar could do it. They use the Goodyear out front for alignment and I think the cost is still $140. (Set by the Goodyear, not Fourstar.)
I would also recommend as another option hopping on the 410 and going south to 403, get off at Eglinton in Mississauga, head EAST 3 or 4 lights and there's a Green and Ross on the North side of Eglinton.
Book ahead with Joe (owner) for Roger to do your alignment. Roger loves Hondas. :rolleyes: It's $60 an hour at the HADA rate that Miles set up a couple of years ago, so $90 if it takes 90 minutes, etc.
905-629-8794
Hm. I'll leave that option open as well. I'm sure that my settings will change, so as long as there is a relatively knowledgable person working on it, that's fine. Maybe I can get it done on the way to the school or on the way to the DDT in a few weeks. I hate to make special trips with this truck... 7.3 litres of deisel-sucking Ford Iron.
pigeon
05-06-2008, 05:19 PM
^^ That doesn't leave any wiggle room if something were to break, or if there are any delays
Slowpoke
05-06-2008, 10:51 PM
Ack! I corrected my WEST to an EAST in my post above.
... I agree that you don't want a last minute alignment. Things go wrong like they get a car up on the rack in the morning for an alignment and find it needs a ball joint or shocks first. So it's sitting on the rack, delaying your alignment until closing...
Less stress if you're done early.
solosprint school: the car performed wonderfully. popped a power steering line, but fixed that with help (THANKS!) very quickly.
Checking my tire wear at the end of the day, i NEEEEED the race alignment. Not sure if i could get it done before DDT solosprint, though as i won't be in brampton next weekend...
All things considered, I am loving this car. I have never had confidence in braking and throwing a car like this.
oh yes, brakes... Am I the only one who's brake pedal is WAY below the gas pedal when hard on the brakes? I either had to fully extend my ankle and twist my leg over to use the back of my heel, or contort the top of my foot over so my shoe laces grabbed the gas... it was horrible!
That issue may well push me to convert to manual brakes sooner than later. New MC, firewall bracing, pivot point. Maybe i'll make myself an adjustable pivot/height brake pedal...
HBomb
05-13-2008, 05:08 PM
My brake pedal was slightly below the gas pedal - which was perfectly placed for me to "heel and toe".
You likely have a burnt master cylinder. Do the 90-97 Integra non-ABS 15/16" master clyinder upgrade before considering a manual setup. As much as ADAM will argue with me, I've had great success using a power booster and larger sized master cylinder. On my B20 hatch, I went one step up from the 15/16" to a full ABS 1" from a GSR and used the corresponding larger booster (it was huge)... The pedal was high, solid and inspired extreme confidence.
Also make sure you have a good set of calipers front and rear (if your car was converted to rear disc, you'll need the proper 4-wheel disc proportioning valve - google it and you'll see what I mean), and a descent set of wheel bearings (to avoid flex that will push the pads away from the rotor). With stainless lines, the proper booster/master combo and a full fresh fill of race fluid, you should be fine.
How do the sizes relate to their feel and effectiveness?
MilesM
05-15-2008, 10:56 AM
A bigger MC pushes more fluid to the calipers - keeps the peddle sits higher. My 1" MC on the super rex was crazy high. Had about an inch and a half of travel.
oooh, that sounds nice. So if what I want is a high, stiff pedal, then bigger is better? okay... bigger = stiffer, i can remember that.
HBomb
05-15-2008, 11:56 AM
The larger master with the matched booster (very important) felt amazing.
Why does the booster matter? I would think that they are not so different that I would experience anything other than softer/harder pedal with the same throw? I dunno... i still like the idea of manual brakes.
Do you think that changing to a larger MC would at least put me in a better position than I am in now? I have HUGE pedal travel and a low pedal and a very squishy feel.
I was looking at Tilton Engineering pedal boxes... they'z puuurdy. Anybody else make a slightly more economical one?
HBomb
05-15-2008, 02:31 PM
I used a larger master with the smaller booster and my pedal travel was much farther - when I switched to the matched booster, the pedal came right up to the top and was rock hard.
In the end, you'll do what you want to do, but I find bolt-on mods tend to be more reliable and cheaper.
pigeon
05-15-2008, 02:39 PM
This is actually a similar problem I ran into at TRAC.
When Miles sat in with me, he was having me brake later and later every lap and by the end I had to stop heel-toe downshifting and just go back to regular downshifting, because by the end of the braking zone I had the brake pedal down so low that that I couldn't even reach the gas pedal with the same foot (at least not without upsetting my braking).
Pedal box is pretty much out of the question for this car. It would be total overkill and cost 20% of the cost of the entire build so far.
Did your longer travel also have a longer dead zone? that could have been a matter of the length of the pin going into or out of the booster... I dunno.
MilesM
05-15-2008, 02:52 PM
I put a 15/16th MC on my stock booster of a CRX which is pretty much the same braking system. Made a big difference in brake travel. Start there.
yeah, you mentioned that at the school, Miles. I was just considering if the 15/16th or the 1" is a better starting spot considering manual brakes is my intended finishing spot?
HBomb
05-15-2008, 03:21 PM
Having done both, save the trouble and go straight to the 1". There is a little extra work to bend and flare one of the lines, but it's well worth it!
MilesM
05-15-2008, 03:22 PM
My 15/16ths MC cost me 70 bucks also did at 90-92 teg upgrade for another 50 bux. The 5 bolt 1" conversion was 1500 at the time. Had 80% of the performance with 15/16ths.
1500 beans? What was that for? an adapter plate with 5 bolt holes? If that's it, i can do that myself; I want to reinforce the firewall anyway, so i may as well make a plate to mount whatever brake MC I choose...
What car does each of these parts come from, and does anybody have spares around??
engsr
05-16-2008, 09:54 AM
The $1500 was probably for the whole 5 bolt conversion - knuckles, rear trailing arms, etc.
If you're after the 1" MC, the cars it came off of are any Integra Type-Rs and the 99-01 Integra GS/GS-R. Ideally you'd want the mating booster since the mounting holes (for the MC) will line up perfectly, otherwise you'll have to fab something (I think it's just easier getting the mating booster, since you'll know it works together).
HBomb
05-16-2008, 09:55 AM
1500 beans? What was that for? an adapter plate with 5 bolt holes? If that's it, i can do that myself; I want to reinforce the firewall anyway, so i may as well make a plate to mount whatever brake MC I choose...
What car does each of these parts come from, and does anybody have spares around??
Miles should have been more specific - the "5-bolt" conversion for a Honda is to switch from 4-bolt hubs (at the four wheels) to the coveted 5-bolt setup from an Integra Type-R - that conversion includes wheels, spindles, knuckles, ball joints, control arms, trailing arms, etc, etc...
A 1" master and booster from a wrecker (any ABS Integra after '98) will run $100-150.
Hanif
Ooookay! That makes more sense than a 5-bolt master cylinder!
Any ABS integra 1999+, you say? Would there be a part number or marking to designate 1"? Anything that I can just look at?
Making an adapter is no biggie. This whole car is full of fabbed bracketry.
engsr
05-16-2008, 11:00 AM
On the side of the MC, there should be a stamped 1 somewhere.
On the side of the MC, there should be a stamped 1 somewhere.
as opposed to a stamped 13-16 or 15-16?
engsr
05-16-2008, 11:22 AM
Yup.
(stupid 10 character minimum)
Thanks for the details! I will try to get on the phone with some wreckers to find this part. I found a website quoting 70 bucks, but that may have been USD.
wildoutwhitegsr
05-16-2008, 08:19 PM
FYI my 94 gsr came with a 1" master cylinder as well.
1" Master with the monster booster is an awesome setup. The few folks who drive my EGs praise the brakes every time.
Post solosprint checkup reveals:
Replaced oil pan is now leaking around the gasket. My mechanic used goop-gasket as well as a proper rubber gasket. Was that a bad idea?
Bad idle, CEL and black liquid out the exhaust (wet black patch on the ground): Blink code 3: MAP sensor. Checked the voltages going to the sensor (unplug cable from sensor, check voltages on cable) are all 0. This tells me that whoever installed this motor just didn't wire up the MAP sensor on the other side at all. I have no idea where these wires go... any suggestions on how to get voltage to and signal from my MAP?
Is it safe to assume that no MAP signal could result in high idle, high fuel usage and low HP?
HBomb
05-27-2008, 10:25 AM
You should not use gasket goop with a honda oil-pan gasket.
no map would lead to all three things you mention - as well as a really funky idle and very erratic low-rpm throttle response.
Thanks, Hanif. I will mention that to my mechanic who is fixing the car today.
Now I just need to figure out how to wire up that sensor... would those wires go directly to the ECU? I have no fear of running my own wires and splicing them into the ECU connector. I'd like to know why there is 0 voltage going to the sensor... methinks the other end of the wires probably just hang somewhere uselessly.
HBomb
05-27-2008, 10:49 AM
The non-VTEC Civics had the MAP wiring come off of the firewall and head down to the ECU directly while VTEC Civics and Integras had the wiring go through the main engine wiring harness and then through the bulkheads at the top of the strut tower (passenger side). I'm not sure how the del sol wires were run - but you should be fine to wire directly to the ECU. The ECU pins should be identical between the Del Sol and Civic since the ECUs are swappable.
The ECU pins they should connect to are shown in the electrical prints at the back of the manual. If you don't have a PDF copy, do a quick search on the HADA board and you'll find the links to download it.
Hanif
Great, thanks hanif. I think the issue lies with the swap... the MAP on the non-vtec engine that the base Del Sol came with is located on the firewall. The MAP on my vtec engine is right before the TB. My best guess is that whoever did the swap didn't know electronics well enough to be doing a swap and just overlooked the issue.
I will check the manual and troubleshoot/repair it on saturday when I get my hands on the car again.
Thanks for the help, Hanif.
So my mechanic tells me that the part cost on a MAP sensor is 500 beans... haha... if that's the case, i'll just get it dyno'd with a bad map and use the dyno option!!! I'm not paying 500 bucks to get a sensor for a crappy engine that i could completely replace for 500 bucks.
HBomb
05-27-2008, 03:46 PM
I have a MAP sensor (if I can find it) that you can have in exchange for a firm handshake :)
Dood - they are cheap in the used Honda parts market since there are a ton from all of the swaps that have happened...
Hanif
nrg3k
05-27-2008, 08:44 PM
is this sensor on other motors ? non-vtec D15b7 ?
DJM:>
is this sensor on other motors ? non-vtec D15b7 ?
DJM:>
YUP ... pretty much any 92-00 Honda/Acura will have the appropriate and similar MAP
Moose
Okay, heart attack subsiding... not sure if the sensor is dead yet because the voltages that should be going to it aren't there.
So whatever hack installed this engine a) doesn't know the difference between a volt and an ohm and/or b) just didn't give a sht about the install and hacked it up.
The engine originally in this car had the MAP sensor on the firewall. This engine has it on the TB. The harnesses are universal. The TB harness was used instead of the firewall one, so the wires connected up to the car at a connector that had no wires for those 3 pins. I reached around under the battery and pulled up a connector; hooked it up and the MAP - issue is gone. Before even starting the car we checked the O2 sensor as well and it was just dangling unplugged. Hooked it up, reset the ECU and the engine runs beautifully now! No more black smoke/spit on the ground. No more high idle. No more sputtering at neutral throttle on high rpm. Revs go up smoother and faster when in neutral. I can't wait to see if it makes a difference on the butt dyno.
MilesM
06-02-2008, 12:15 PM
Great news dawg!
Now I contemplate... do i have enough time before calabogie (my next event) to get a couple hundred pounds out of the car and install an undertray, dam/splitter and rear diffuser? All of this should land me at the top of GT3.
At the DDT I lost by 2 seconds in my class, but my class leader was 1 second faster than GT3 leader. If i can gain 1 second by going up 1 class, then I am much more competitive. Considering the size of calabogie, those aero mods may make me very competitive :)
MilesM
06-02-2008, 01:02 PM
Might backfire on you. Aero creates drag so the speed gained in corners could be lost on the straights.
nay nay.... downforce creates drag. Aero is just the manipulation of air. The undertray will reduce drag, as will the air dam/splitter. The rear diffuser would generate drag on a car that was smooth underneath, but have you seen under the back of my del sol? It is hollow... basically a big parachute.
if those mods go well, then i might add some lexan windows
pigeon
06-02-2008, 02:10 PM
If you have your suspension set up really well Matt, since your car isn't too high powered... you can probably do all the highspeed sweeping corners flat out without aero anyways.
At Calabogie my Protege can do majority of the track with the pedal all the way on the ground, I know I have less power than you, but there was still tons of traction left. The very high-powered cars would run really nice times with aero mods. For low powered cars, the slow corners are going to have little effect by the aero... and its not going to facilitate you going any faster on the fast corners... since you'd be going wide-open the whole way through anyways... the increased drag would just slow you down there.
I have a rear wing and am still building a front splitter for my car, during either the Mosport school or the Mosport lapping day in the fall, im going to see if Guillermo would be willing to let me run with the G2X in my car and then help interpret some of the data afterwards. I want to see if my lap times decrease or increase with the aero, and how much. Also want to see if it affects my top speed at the end of the back straight, and also want to see if it increases my cornering speed. I curious if its worth the pip's on a low powered car... and its kinda fun testing that stuff out :)
pigeon
06-02-2008, 02:12 PM
I just read your post, I type to friggin slow.. lol
When I said aero, I was referring to front splitter and rear wing... not the other stuff.
Does the front splitter generate significant drag? I was under the impression that it reduces drag by reducing the amount of air under the car, thereby reducing under-car drag.
What was your lap times and top speed on the DDT? I was running 62's (IIRC) topping out around 145km/h on the downhill. I expect that the longer turns and straights of calabogie will have me going much faster than the DDT straight.
pigeon
06-02-2008, 03:13 PM
My top speed at DDT on the downhill right before the braking zone was about 130km/h.
On Saturday my best time was 69.392
On Sunday my best time was 65.068
At Calabogie my top speed was about 160km/h
At Mosport big track, 150-155km/h
EDIT: The reason my car sucks balls at Mosport big track is because a large portion of that back straight is uphill. At Calabogie the uphill sections are either gradual, or around corners... and Miles was able to point out certain sections where you could use the road camber to keep your cornering speeds up. Calabogie is by far my favorite track!
Okay, comparing your experiences to mine tells me that I will likely be spending a fair amount of time at aero-enabled speeds. How fast were the high-speed sweepers at Calabogie?
I know for certain that I could take corners 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 at mosport at high enough speed for downforce to help me.
My primary concern is the undertray and rear diffuser because those areas have horrible drag (or parachute) conditions. The front splitter is secondary, but i would say it is still very important. Side-skirts and a wing are low in my list; windows and possibly a fast-back would be higher.
I have a rear wing and am still building a front splitter for my car, during either the Mosport school or the Mosport lapping day in the fall, im going to see if Guillermo would be willing to let me run with the G2X in my car and then help interpret some of the data afterwards. I want to see if my lap times decrease or increase with the aero, and how much. Also want to see if it affects my top speed at the end of the back straight, and also want to see if it increases my cornering speed. I curious if its worth the pip's on a low powered car... and its kinda fun testing that stuff out :)
I was talking to AC after he added a whack of aero to his race ITR.. Even near the end of the day he was still adapting his driving to the additional traction.. He mentioned that it did cost him some straight-line speed.. Not sure if he had any lap or split times..
MilesM
06-02-2008, 06:09 PM
G2X would be the way to go to testing theories. ACs data doesn't apply since he had more power to push the wind and the power to use the grip on exit.
pigeon
06-03-2008, 01:22 AM
Who's ACs?
MilesM
06-03-2008, 08:21 AM
Alec Chavarian (sp) Former HADA Marketing Director before I took over. Races a White ITR. He got a promotion at work and ever since we haven't seen much of him. :rolleyes:
engsr
06-03-2008, 08:42 AM
It's not white any more ... for the most part:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2138/2545718566_ccd0323ef5.jpg?v=0
pigeon
06-03-2008, 10:21 AM
Ahh, this was before my time here at HADA then
SiRJL
06-03-2008, 12:13 PM
Wow.. that black integra looks Hot!!!! :cool:
I want one.. like that!!!:D
pigeon
06-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Oh! look who's right up on his behind!
nrg3k
06-03-2008, 08:47 PM
regarding aero on the civics.... just don't go overboard. You may find that covering up the parachute would suffice to give you some more top speed, but adding a wing is just gonna slow you down. I was hitting 155 down the hill on day two at DDT and was able to pull off a 61.7. At 'bogie i was flat out most corners, and hit about 165 up rocky road. I could probably have gone faster, but had axle issues (crazy ass vibrations). The corner after that long straight is not very fast and completely blind - i donno if you'd be in the speed range to make use of aero after braking.
If you can fix up the rear of your car to be more flat or at least covered underneath, you'll probably have a better top speed. Your wide tires are more than enough to hold you grip-wise for all the major corners at 'bogie.
DJM:>
pigeon
06-04-2008, 01:29 AM
I hit my top speed of 160ish right in that area where we were first allowed to pass under braking. I would be flat out all the way from the beginning of the top of the hill... then all the way down the hill through the right turn, then the left turn, then i'd enter the braking zone. Its that downhill that saves my ass, car accelerates quickly when its going down a hill and the pedal is pegged..hahaha
Gah, I forgot all the names already :( I just remember Jacque, Gille, then something about being boring... then something about sex at 3am and fighting temptation.. then spooning. Friggin memory, thats why I don't do Solo2... i'd never remember the track!
A wing is not really on my list... I kinda want to make one just to learn how to make one and play with it, but i won't compete with it, probably. Do the solosprint rules allow active aero?
I think that I'll see only gains if i do a splitter and full undertray. Because of my high rear bumper, that undertray will slope up and act as a diffuser. That should be plenty of aero for my car.
nrg3k
06-04-2008, 10:46 PM
pigeon: hook leads to the hill before what yer talking about (spoon) which is the down-hill-right which leads to 4-left (which is a left-hander before going into the quarry). i found that i was pretty quick down that hill and could hold full throttle all the way - only did a slight lift or MAYBE brake tap. When i passed people around there, i would have less speed, but i wouldn't even lift making the left. I would go up the hill as fast as possible, catch the guy in front of me as he did his turn-in, and i'd fly past on the outside hoping i didn't lose grip ;) the times i did that move, i would end up 3-4 car lengths ahead of the car i passed before braking zone in the quarry.
matt: you will take aero pips if your defuser is below the body trim-line. not sure how that would be gauged on your car, since the back is nothing like stock ;) same deal on teh front for a splitter - i think you have 1/2 inch or so 'free' but will take points if it goes lower or wider (cannards ?). Hopefully G can chime in to confirm this.
DJM:>
I'm okay with taking pips for this stuff. I lost by 2 seconds in my class, but only 1 second in the class above me. If i can tune my car one class up from aero and further weight reduction (the del sol weighed in at a blubbery 2130 at the solosprints!) then I can hopefully run 1 second faster (as the rules are designed) and then i'll just be propositioned by 1 second instead of losing by 2.
Slowpoke
06-05-2008, 09:09 AM
Do the solosprint rules allow active aero?
If by "active aero" you mean aero that flexes, moves, or is adjustable based on vehicle speed or attitude...
... after the moveable Renault F1 front wing issue in 2006, at the CASC-OR AGM the ASN/FIA Canada rep who was there explained the issue, and the CASC-OR president at the time mentioned that they would not allow it.
But nothing specific ended up in SoloSprint's ruleset about it because we had no aero rules at the time.
However, given that street cars like the 911 have active aero and are allowed to use it... I see no reason that you can't.
I saw a university project where someone was using a force-film transducer between their wing and mounting point and were running a control system that constantly adjusted attack angle to maximize downforce. Seemed pretty cool.
force-film transducer
Time to fire up the Millennium Falcon boys! I think I finally got the force-film transducer fixed!
yes... i'm a geek. I can live with that. Its a transducer that translates a squishing force on the film into a voltage output. So the rear mount of the wing is not bolted down, it just rests on a mount with the film in between.
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