Why is my D16Z6 so unimpressive?

[Matt]

Title says it. My car is light, but it pulls like an anhorexic rickshaw driver. Does the gearing just suck? I never used 4th at Dunnville; i could have on the front straight for about 3 seconds, but not worth the shift. Tell me about this motor!

[MilesM]

Gearing on that car is total monkey balls. Final drives exist to help you out. Have you dyno'd it yet? Noticed it was blowing smoke, but might have been your oil leak.

[engsr]

Sounds like you have the CX/DX tranny (long gears). I remember Dave's Civic with the long gears and he never had to shift out of 3rd at TMP on both straights.

Do you know what tranny you have? There should be a serial number there, somewhere. Check this thread - could help:

http://www.d-series.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12603&highlight=tranny+numbers

[Matt]

I have not dyno'd it. I didn't even notice the smoke till I came off the track after my last run; that was from oil dripping onto the exhaust. If there was smoke out my pipes, that's news to me and I should look into it.

Can you link me to a reliable mfg for final drive gears, and is that more work and money than this engine is worth? Maybe I should just leave it alone till i scrap the engine (not this season).

Don't know what tranny either. My focus has been on everything but the engine in hopes that it would be just fine for my first season. I will look at it when I get my hands on my car again in two weeks. Long distance relationships suck.

[mxqisit]

D-series short-geared LSD trannies are very reasonably priced from the JDM importers. Depending on your luck, you're probably looking in the $300 - $600 range. Once you confirm you do have a long-geared tranny, this would be a worthwhile upgrade.

It would also be wise to run your motor through a quick set of tests to determine its health. A leakdown test, compression test, and dyno session should be in the cards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_D_engine#D16Z6

[Matt]

300-600 sounds great, but not this season. I've invested a lot of money into my 'racing program' (truck, car, tires, body work, blah blah) and I've only used the car once. I need to get some use out of it and only replace the essentials.

Where can I learn more about compression testing, leak-down testing and other general motor-health testing. I am NOT a mechanic, but I am eager to learn.

[MilesM]

Leakdown is something you'll have to take to a mechanic unless you have access to a compressed air machine and the specialty tools to pull it off. Compression test tool you can borrow from someone or pick one up yourself. They're 50-60 bucks from Princess Auto or Crappy tire. We should do a HADA compression test tech this summer. It's pretty easy to do.

[Matt]

I do all my work at my father's shop, so I have compressed air to work with. The tools at that shop, however, are designed for trucks, so I would have to buy any specialty tools. I assume a compression test is just putting a pressure guage in a spark plug hole at BDC and raising it through the compression stroke to TDC and checking the guage?

Does anyone in the club have a OBD-1 code reader? I noticed about 3 seconds after startup I get a CEL and idle goes up to 2000.

[MilesM]

Under the glove box on the passenger side there's a 2 prong connector. Use a paper clip or wire to connect the two and read the blinks on the dash. A long blink is 10, short blink is 1. So 2 long one short is 21. 4 long 3 short is 43. etc. Look up the code you get online and it will tell you where you need to look.

[HBomb]

I didn't check when we were in the car but does you speedo work? You need a working VSS (vehicle speed sensor) for VTEC to engage. You also need a working VTEC oil pressure sensor (separate from the idiot light switch), VTEC solenoid, distributor tach signal and enough oil pressure.

It's possible with your CEL that you weren't hitting VTEC, that may explain the flatness in the higher rpms.

Hanif

[pigeon]

I assume a compression test is just putting a pressure guage in a spark plug hole at BDC and raising it through the compression stroke to TDC and checking the guage?

Does anyone in the club have a OBD-1 code reader? I noticed about 3 seconds after startup I get a CEL and idle goes up to 2000.

Disconnect the fuel pump under the seat
Unplug the distributor harness
Thread the comp tester into the spark plug holes
Make sure the throttle is wide open
Crank the engine for 4-6 seconds

[Matt]

I will try the blink codes when I get back to the car.

The speedo works, I THINK vtec was happening, but I was trying to concentrate on MANY other more important things on saturday, and I've heard that the sohc vtec isn't much to write home about.

Thanks for the description of compression testing.

[engsr]

I don't even notice the Z6 VTEC in my Civic, so yeah, it's really nothing special compared to B series.

For the code reader, you can just use a paper clip in the connector - check this link: http://www.c-speedracing.com/faq/06.php

[MilesM]

If you're interested, super short gearing can be found at special projects. The contact their is Kiwi:

http://www.specialprojectsms.com/index.php?categoryID=6&show_all=yes

These are far shorter than anything honda has ever made. Kind of a waste IMO if you're planning to upgrade to a B motor eventually. You'd have to start over with a 4.7 or a 4.9 FD for a B series since D's aren't compatible.

[Matt]

Hahaha... 500 beans on a FD gear... not for this motor! I'd better just learn how to handle the corners better.

[Matt]

So, I will be replacing my oil pan gasket, that obviously means another oil change. Does anybody have any experience with Seafoam? I am thinking I may buy a bottle to run through the engine before I drop the pan and refill it.

[MilesM]

I have no experience with sea foam, but I distrust any and all additives or engine snake oil.

[TomL]

It's not snake oil, it's a cleanser. I haven't used it, but Darren has. There are lots of people who have anecdotal stories, I haven't read of it hurting anything, if you use it properly. What I have read is to NOT add it to the crankcase, only use it in the intake.

Tom

[Matt]

I will see if I can find any non-anecdotal evidence. I know my buddy Dan that races at TLMC put it in his honda and said it runs better, but again... anecdotal.

Why not crank case? I have heard that you can add it to the crank case, run it a few minutes then change the oil... that was my plan, at least.

[TomL]

It really thins the oil out, apparently, I'd personally not want to run the risk of spinning a bearing, as unlikely as it is.

[jason_alt]

Save your money. Dunk a vaccum line into a glass of water a bit at a time.

And no it won't hydrolock. Slow and steady.

[Guillermo]

Does the gearing just suck? I never used 4th at Dunnville; i could have on the front straight for about 3 seconds, but not worth the shift.
Sorry to hear about your crappy gearing, we had to use 5 gear in our civic at Dunnville, we might run out of revs at Calabogie :eek:

[pigeon]

^^ have you ever run your car at Mosport G?
Did it run out of revs there?

[Guillermo]

^^ have you ever run your car at Mosport G?
Did it run out of revs there?
We haven't driven our car at Mosport GP track yet, but we are paid and registered to do so.

[Slowpoke]

I think I shifted to 5th just after the chicane at Dunnville.

I run out of grunt before the crest at the big track. 5th gear, 6th gear... doesn't matter.

I need JDM ratios too, yo! http://www.northeastfoto.com/forums/images/smilies/23_6_118.gif




(Only smiley I could find with a ballcap on sideways.

[Matt]

Yeah, you'll run out of revs if you're using 5th at dunnville, i think. You have torque, so you may pull up the back straight and be done with 5th at turn 7. I'll probably still be puttering along in third...

[HBomb]

My B20 hatch was near redline in 5th before the braking zone for 8 at MoGP.

Hanif

[mxqisit]

My B20 hatch was near redline in 5th before the braking zone for 8 at MoGP.

Hanif
Which tranny/FD was that B20 paired with?

[Matt]

I've never used 5th gear on a race track. My mazda topped out 4th at the braking zone to 8, that's as fast as I've ever gone on a track: 165.

[HBomb]

Which tranny/FD was that B20 paired with?

ITR 4.4 FD at approx 190-200 kph. Theorhetical max at 7000 rpm is 206 kph with a 225-45-15" Toyo RA-1.

[pigeon]

My Mazdas 4th wouldn't even top out, I was stuck at 150km/hr

[Matt]

1.8L or 1.6L?

[pigeon]

1.5L :(

92bhp.. lol

[Matt]

Hehe...oh my.
My tach stayed still on the climbs in the back straight and I only accelerated on the flats. You must have been slowing down on the climbs!

[Maxi]

Haha...the good old day of D-series gearing! The CX/DX trans are the worst for this. Like Brian or Hanif was saying, I wouldn't get out of third gear around Shannonville or Cayuga or the DDT. I then swapped in a JDM VTi transmission, which has the shorter Si gearing and a factory LSD. Made a huge difference. Acceleration is much improved, as is gearing spacing for every track we compete on. LSD isn't really necessary with a low horsepower D-series motor, but it doesn't hurt, especially as you add power. So a regular Si trans without a LSD would still be a huge improvement, and should be almost free in terms of cost these days. I bet you could pick one up for $50 if you trolled the forums like TCC and ClubSi or even from a wrecker. It's well worth the effort, IMO. I wouldn't spend $ on a different final drive unless you're super serious about maxing out the car's setup, since spending $500 on a final drive for a drivetrain that's worth less than that seems kind of crazy to me. The whole reason to compete with a D-series engine is to do it on the cheap. Expensive FD kills that logic. If you want to go faster, throw a B20 in the car. That's marginally more $ than buying and installing a FD in your D-series. Hanif knows the perfect recipe for B20 fastness :)

[MilesM]

+1 on the B20. Save up for an ITR tranny though since it costs more than the mota. ;) But put that on your next season list. This year just beat the snot out of that D-motor, work on your line and try different alinments and setups.

[Matt]

Miles, that is precicely my plan. Its amazing how quickly one can stray from their plan when they see a MASSIVE shortcoming in other areas... yes, I will just fix up my oil leak and run this season on the D motor in third gear.

[mxqisit]

Where can I learn more about compression testing, leak-down testing and other general motor-health testing. I am NOT a mechanic, but I am eager to learn.

Leakdown is something you'll have to take to a mechanic unless you have access to a compressed air machine and the specialty tools to pull it off.

I knew I'd find this eventually. It's one of Trenell's many write-ups that he has posted elsewhere.

Leakdown test on a Honda B-Series:
http://torontointegras.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=13879

[Matt]

Thanks!....

[nrg3k]

my CX transmission had the long-ass gears and it was a major pain. The easiest way to tell is by the info on those other links - look for B000 or A000 stamped on the transmission. The B000/long gear trans is the pig. For $200+ you can get a non-LSD shorter transmission and its worth the cost and time to install. I was easily in fourth gear coming up to the kink at dunnville after grande bend - held to about 150+ by the braking zone at pit-exit. if i didn't have a lame drive-axle at calabogie, i'd have easily gotten into 5th gear up rocky road (at 160 the car was shaking pretty violently).

DJM:>

[AdamH]

well..its only 1.6litres..so you cant expect much from it

:)

[Matt]

I didn't expect much... I got less :(

No matter, this car setup was designed for the brakes and the turns, and for learning how to drive.

[Slowpoke]

Okay, at the risk of getting banned (or at the very least, a cuff to the head from my navigator):

http://www.bobthephotoguy.com/misc/lugnutz.jpg


Let me get this straight... Your Honda has 1.6 litres, but my Mountain Dew has 2.0?

Okay, I'm done now. I think. :o



You know that I love you all, right? :D

Seriously. Unless you swap in a CRV motor for SoloSprint, the gearing changes sound like a really good idea.